Confederate Flag: Symbol of ?

[oldfart]

Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans. For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism. For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.

I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.

Well, we seem to have had a vigorous and interesting discussion. Have we answered your question? I think you have heard from the passionate on both sides of the question.

 

[Toro]

Before I moved to the States, I viewed it as a flag of oppression and racism. After living in the South, I have come to realize it is also a symbol of pride. My black friends think it's the former. I now think its both.

 

[Ernie S.]

how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?

Actually a pretty good question. In the 50's, 60's, and early 70's white resistance in the South was led by White Citizen's Councils where "respectable" segregationists in public office and the business community tried to slow or reverse desegregation. The local muscle to rough up Freedom Riders and shoot into occupied houses and burn churches was delegated to the Klan. In a typical Southern county the White Citizens Council normally included the Sheriff, Chief of Police, Mayor, President of the Bank, County Superintendent of Schools and so forth. The Chief Deputy was often the Klan head, supported by all the good ol' boys he went to school with.

The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 blacks and 1,297 whites were lynched between 1882 and 1968. The last full public lynching in the South was probably Emmett Till in Mississippi in 1955. After that, people were killed (Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner in 1964 for example) in racially motivated slayings, but these more nearly resembled assassinations or mob hits rather than traditional lynchings. In the decade from 2000 to 2009 a number of high profile cases which had ended in hung juries were retried and convictions obtained.

So to answer, there are probably two or three dozen inmates in prison today serving long sentences for racially motivated murder, attempted murder, arson, and similar violent
crimes. I believe six of them are there for trying to kill Morris Dees. To the best of my knowledge, all of them were members of the KKK or a successor white supremacy organization such as Aryan Nation, or had close ties to such organizations. The traditional meeting place is the Stormfront.org website.

How many black men are in prison for killing whites? I figure they have all but caught up.

 

[Gadawg73]

Because many Georgia blacks are offended by the stars and bars I supported the flag change here years ago. Additionally, it was changed in the 50s to what it was because of support for segregation here which I also opposed.
We still see some young fools flying it on their pickup trucks and try to convince them that is not the best way to remember their ancestors that fought for the wrong side in the civil war.
However, I know many that do not support government flying any version of that flag anymore that do not have a problem with it at re-enactments, heritage observances and memorials. Many southern soldiers were fighting against whatever army was showing up to take all of their crops and livestock, had no slaves and lived in poverty. Their descendants have no reason to be ashamed of them for having that flag as their battle flag. It was war. Not until Jim Crowe, segregation, Klan and other hate terrorist groups was that flag used as a symbol of hate, violence and discrimination to rally uneducated whites with fear against blacks.
If blacks are offended by it why not just not have it anywhere near anything government?
And for private citizens since it is just a flag, ignore it but you can not blame our black neighbors for being upset with it. I would be too if I was black.

 

[Gadawg73]

I was born American and by the grace of God as a southerner. I saw it all. The noose was/is also a symbol of hate just as much as that flag. We would see nooses left in black team mates lockers by other players in high school in the 60s. White parents would come to the defense of white players that were caught. But the majority of the white parents opposed that, stood up and disciplined their kids. Same with the flag here as we respect the opinions of our black neighbors. If that flag offends them on display of anything government then I oppose it. And I am as southern old school as they come.
But you can not stop a private citizen from flying it.
Thank you Granny Walker for raising me right. I think of you everyday.

 

[Dissent]

Because many Georgia blacks are offended by the stars and bars I supported the flag change here years ago. Additionally, it was changed in the 50s to what it was because of support for segregation here which I also opposed.
We still see some young fools flying it on their pickup trucks and try to convince them that is not the best way to remember their ancestors that fought for the wrong side in the civil war.
However, I know many that do not support government flying any version of that flag anymore that do not have a problem with it at re-enactments, heritage observances and memorials. Many southern soldiers were fighting against whatever army was showing up to take all of their crops and livestock, had no slaves and lived in poverty. Their descendants have no reason to be ashamed of them for having that flag as their battle flag. It was war. Not until Jim Crowe, segregation, Klan and other hate terrorist groups was that flag used as a symbol of hate, violence and discrimination to rally uneducated whites with fear against blacks.
If blacks are offended by it why not just not have it anywhere near anything government?
And for private citizens since it is just a flag, ignore it but you can not blame our black neighbors for being upset with it. I would be too if I was black.

Wannabe yankee....sigh

Oh and it wasn't changed by the people it was changed by an arrogant jack ass of a governor who then got his ass thrown out of office because Perdue claimed he would let us vote on it only to be lied to by Perdue....we now have the ugliest flag in the country...its not my flag I fly the real Georgia flag to this day.

 

[uscitizen]

It is one of the ironies of this country that some have taken the confederate flat that might have been symbolic of the bravery of all Americans North and South and made it into a hate symbol.

Huh?

 

[OODA_Loop]

The issue was how to address slavery.

It was Consitutionally protected and Supreme Court upheld.

There wasn't the votes in Congress to change that.

 

[emilynghiem]

Even in its best connotation the Confederate Flag symbolizes a revolution to preserve the right to own other people

The war and the conflicts/strategies around slavery
were not about slavery per se, but economic and political control.

If I had to make an analogy today, the issue of abortion is not really about terminating the life in the womb per se, but about fighting over government interference or limitations because of the fear that opposing outside groups are going to politically dominate.

I agree with the posters who see the flag as symbolizing independence of the States and rebelling against overreaching federal govt.

Texas has a whole history and culture built around that, and the Texas Flag is very similar in symbolizing that level of independence.

I think it is sad to associate the flag with slavery and lynching, and to see it as a hate symbol.
I guess the anti-war people who burn the US flag or display it upside down to protest global oppression by corporate slavery in the name of American free market forces, see negative associations instead of the positive heritage that stands for, above the negative side of things going on as well.

 

[Gadawg73]

Because many Georgia blacks are offended by the stars and bars I supported the flag change here years ago. Additionally, it was changed in the 50s to what it was because of support for segregation here which I also opposed.
We still see some young fools flying it on their pickup trucks and try to convince them that is not the best way to remember their ancestors that fought for the wrong side in the civil war.
However, I know many that do not support government flying any version of that flag anymore that do not have a problem with it at re-enactments, heritage observances and memorials. Many southern soldiers were fighting against whatever army was showing up to take all of their crops and livestock, had no slaves and lived in poverty. Their descendants have no reason to be ashamed of them for having that flag as their battle flag. It was war. Not until Jim Crowe, segregation, Klan and other hate terrorist groups was that flag used as a symbol of hate, violence and discrimination to rally uneducated whites with fear against blacks.
If blacks are offended by it why not just not have it anywhere near anything government?
And for private citizens since it is just a flag, ignore it but you can not blame our black neighbors for being upset with it. I would be too if I was black.

Wannabe yankee....sigh

Oh and it wasn't changed by the people it was changed by an arrogant jack ass of a governor who then got his ass thrown out of office because Perdue claimed he would let us vote on it only to be lied to by Perdue....we now have the ugliest flag in the country...its not my flag I fly the real Georgia flag to this day.

You can fly any flag you want to.
Wannabe southerners like you always define themselves by such trivial things as flags.
Us Georgians define ourselves by dignity, respect, honor and courage.
Govern yourself accordingly if you claim to be a southerner.

 

[rightwinger]

how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?

The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted

Please try to keep up

I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.

You really need to dig deeper

The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"

 

[Gadawg73]

The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted

Please try to keep up

I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.

You really need to dig deeper

The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"

Not to everyone it is.
All over Georgia there are cemeteries of Confederate dead. Most of them were not fighting for a flag or slavery. Putting flags on their graves has nothing to do with what the state was trying to do. Pretty much the same today with any flag on a grave.
Soldiers fight for their buddies first and foremost. Not a flag or government policy at the time.
Personally, I do not like that flag as most of the folks I see display it are haters.
But I also see the historians, the re-enactments and the graves.
And those that want to ban all of that also.
Just because of a flag.

 

[rightwinger]

I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.

You really need to dig deeper

The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"

Not to everyone it is.
All over Georgia there are cemeteries of Confederate dead. Most of them were not fighting for a flag or slavery. Putting flags on their graves has nothing to do with what the state was trying to do. Pretty much the same today with any flag on a grave.
Soldiers fight for their buddies first and foremost. Not a flag or government policy at the time.
Personally, I do not like that flag as most of the folks I see display it are haters.
But I also see the historians, the re-enactments and the graves.
And those that want to ban all of that also.
Just because of a flag.

I have no problem with displaying that flag to honor those who fought and died for it.
However, the confederate flag has taken on a new meaning (maybe it always was the meaning) that certain people are not socially equal of others. It is a reminder to stay in your place

 

[sakinago]

The point is the symbology of the Confederate Flag. How many Jews are left from the concentration camps? Yet the swastika is still not accepted

Please try to keep up

I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.

You really need to dig deeper

The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"

Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.

 

[Gadawg73]

I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.

You really need to dig deeper

The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"

Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.

I am part Irish.
Do not remember any of my relatives castrated, having their children and wives sold away, in slavery for 300 years here, their churches fire bombed and men lynched and killed.
Your Mickey Mouse analogy is in fact a Mickey Mouse argument.

 

[Dissent]

Actually the British did enslave hundreds of thousands of Irish.

 

[rightwinger]

I get what your saying, but you are placing a strict meaning on something where a strict meaning is not indicated, which is where your argument breaks down. Like I said before, In PA if your a fan of country music, music that mostly celebrates the southern way of life, you have a confederate flag on your truck and or jeep. That is what it means to some people.

You really need to dig deeper

The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"

Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.

Nobody broke into homes of the Irish in the middle of the night to drag off and lynch a family member wearing a Mickey Mouse hat. If they did, that hat would be offensive to the Irish.

 

[sakinago]

You really need to dig deeper

The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"

Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.

I am part Irish.
Do not remember any of my relatives castrated, having their children and wives sold away, in slavery for 300 years here, their churches fire bombed and men lynched and killed.
Your Mickey Mouse analogy is in fact a Mickey Mouse argument.

A majority of the Irish history for the past millennium has been one big story of being oppressed. And people back then were very, very unfriendly to the Irish immigrants. So do some research in Irish history, cause they didn't have it easy either. Either way, how many people who have a confederate flag symbol outside of the KKK actually believe that blacks should be enslaved again? I am also trying to think of a society that wasn't enslaved at one point, or that did not enslave others...Im really having a hard time.

And If you do your research in civil war history, you will find that a lot of the men who fought for the south, did so because back then your values went from most importance to least importance like this: god, family, state, and then country. I.E. Robert E. Lee actually opposed slavery, but his values lied more strongly with his state of virginia, than it did the country of the united states. Not many people in the south actually owned slaves, or strongly agreed with it, It was the richer plantation owners that owned slaves and influenced the south to secede from the union. These were the bad people back then. Key functional word there is back then. No one in this nation right now is guilty of enslaving a race, nor should anyone feel animosity towards anybody because they were enslaved (b/c no one living has been enslaved). If somebody out there today believes that we should enslave blacks, then they should be dismissed as racist idiots, just like you would dismiss someone who believes that the government is controlled by aliens. You dont talk to people like that and give them what they want, you let them wallow in their own feces of thoughts.

The christian cross was the main symbol of the crusades, but most of the people who wear a cross around their neck are not in support of putting on their armor, grabbing their swords, and killing/converting all the muslims. Same goes for most of the people that have a confederate symbol on their truck, clothes, accessories, etc. It doesn't mean what you claim it means for them.

 

[sakinago]

You really need to dig deeper

The flag is more than just a symbol of some good ole boys having fun. It is a statement to return to the times when our country was torn apart because some states insisted on the right to own other people. It was a desire to abuse, rape and subjugate a whole race of people for the profit of the one percent in 1860.
It was chosen as a symbol by the KKK for a reason. A symbol of...we want to return to those "good ole days"

Hahaha, the only people that think that way are the KKK, who no one in the right mind has respect for. I dont think that anyone in america has forgotten the civil war or what it stood for. I can guarantee country music isn't sending subliminal messages to its listeners, saying we need to enslave blacks again, and split the country in half. Your trying to squeeze out meaning that only a very few retards follow. Mickey is a prejudice term towards the Irish, I dont hear anyone claiming that mickey mouse is a prejudice symbol towards the Irish and should not be shown anymore. Get with it, its a little ridiculous.

Nobody broke into homes of the Irish in the middle of the night to drag off and lynch a family member wearing a Mickey Mouse hat. If they did, that hat would be offensive to the Irish.

What? Im sorry this statement does not make sense to me.

 

[Charles_Main]

Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans. For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism. For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.

I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.

What most people fail to Understand about the Confederate Flag, is the fact that during the Civil War the Vast Majority of people who lived in the South did not own Slaves. For them the war was about an Abusive Federal Government that they felt was no better than the King of England had been.

So the Flag for Most of them was a symbol of Independence from DC.

However most since that war, Racist assholes have flown the Flag as a symbol of their Hate for Blacks. So it has gotten a worse image than it really deserves.

I personally have very Mixed Feelings about the Civil war, a War I have studied in Great length. While the very though of People owning other people is Deplorable and unthinkable to me. I do have Sympathies for the Idea of states standing up against an Abusive Central Government. After all this Country was Born for that very Reason, and it seems silly that we keep ceding State's rights and powers to an Increasingly Powerful Federal Government.

Ironically, If the Southern States who left the Union back then could see how bad things have gotten today as far as Abuse of Federal Power, they would realize they had it Damn Fucking good back then, and their stupid fucking war cost the States in the Fight for their rights and Power, All of them, not just the southern ones.

(sorry about the typos, think I got em all lol)