Concealed carry: customer thwarts armed robbers, might face charges

[George Costanza]

Shooting someone who is committing a robbery is not vigilantism, tracking them down later and shooting them is.

Good point. My choice of the term "viglante" was probably not well taken. That does not change the fact that, generally speaking, police officers are the preferred method for taking crime-commiting felons into cusdtody and/or stopping crimes in progress, not armed citizens who presumably do not have the training or experience to do the type of job a police officer could.

I actually agree with you, but the police are not capable of preventing crimes unless they happen to be there. If someone is chasing me with an axe I would much prefer some armed citizen to shoot him than wait around for the police to show up after I have been hacked into small pieces.

Of course - so would I. But that's not the point I am making. Sure, the "rescuee" might come out better if there was a civilian "rescuer" around (as opposed to no one else around). But what about the rescuer? Well, he may or may not fare OK - and that's my point.

 

[Ernie S.]

Good point. My choice of the term "viglante" was probably not well taken. That does not change the fact that, generally speaking, police officers are the preferred method for taking crime-commiting felons into cusdtody and/or stopping crimes in progress, not armed citizens who presumably do not have the training or experience to do the type of job a police officer could.

I actually agree with you, but the police are not capable of preventing crimes unless they happen to be there. If someone is chasing me with an axe I would much prefer some armed citizen to shoot him than wait around for the police to show up after I have been hacked into small pieces.

Of course - so would I. But that's not the point I am making. Sure, the "rescuee" might come out better if there was a civilian "rescuer" around (as opposed to no one else around). But what about the rescuer? Well, he may or may not fare OK - and that's my point.

That's the risk one takes when he arms himself. I'm pretty confident that I could handle myself in this kind of situation, if you can't, I suggest you keep your thumb constantly over the 9 button on your cell phone so you can speed up police response.
I have stopped a knife attack by drawing my weapon. The crack head was still 20 feet away when I went for the model 29 and he thought better and lived, but he would have died at about 10 feet.

 

[The Gadfly]

Yes, cops are rarely there when the crime occurs. We call that too bad. We also call it too bad when some amateur John Wayne who thinks he is going to be a do-gooding hero, gets his gun taken away from him by the bad guy, and shot with it.

Right, tough guy?

Tough guy? Are you willing to try to take my gun from me? Neither are most would be felons.

What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about me wanting to take your gun away from you? I don't want your gun. Feel free to keep it.

I see your point - all I ask is that you see mine. For every guy like you who may be able to use a gun and not have to worry about having it taken away from him, I submit there are others, who are not as experienced as yourself and who, if they attempted to confront a bad guy with a gun in their hand, might be in real trouble.

George, I have always suggested to those who are not sure they have the proper mindset and marksmanship to shoot and kill the target when the situation necessitates drawing the weapon, that it is better for them NOT to carry a firearm. There are after all, sub-lethal personal protection options available to those so inclined. It is a VERY bad idea to draw a weapon on anyone, without intending to fire it; any open shot should be taken as soon as the weapon lines up on the target, and ideally that should be two shots, as fast as possible, the first aimed center of mass, the second at the head.

Incidentally, I can tell you, after a good many competitive shooting events, that the average police officer is typically a very mediocre shot with his duty weapon (they simply don't practice enough) , and a whole lot of civilian shooters are considerably better than that.

 

[old navy]

As there are many opinions on this matter, there are also many differences in state laws covering the use of firearms by citizens. Wisconsin is new to the concealed carry arena and as these cases develop, new precedents will be set.

I am of the opinion that one who carries concealed, should do so for self defense and defense of their loved ones. They should strive to be a good witness rather than a hero. There are circumstances in which I would engage a BG that do not involve my or my families' safety. For example, if he was actively shooting or appeared to have potential to start. I practice often with all my firearms though and have operational experience in the use of weapons. Lots of citizens go to the range but truely do not know what it is like to unholster a gun with lives on the line.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

Incidentally, I can tell you, after a good many competitive shooting events, that the average police officer is typically a very mediocre shot with his duty weapon (they simply don't practice enough) , and a whole lot of civilian shooters are considerably better than that.

Well said -- and quite true.

Armed confrontations usually happen so quickly that nothing less than extensive training and practice sessions are necessary to afford the kind of conditioned reaction needed to do everything right.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Some people are going to jump in and try to help armed or not. Especially if it is women and/or children that are endangered. Armed is better and safer.

 

[Full-Auto]

Good point. My choice of the term "viglante" was probably not well taken. That does not change the fact that, generally speaking, police officers are the preferred method for taking crime-commiting felons into cusdtody and/or stopping crimes in progress, not armed citizens who presumably do not have the training or experience to do the type of job a police officer could.

And yet you know full well the chance a cop is at a crime scene AS IT OCCURS is pretty damn slim. Someone should start a recall petition on the DA for even considering charging the man. Deadly force is authorized to save or protect others lives.

Yes, cops are rarely there when the crime occurs. We call that too bad. We also call it too bad when some amateur John Wayne who thinks he is going to be a do-gooding hero, gets his gun taken away from him by the bad guy, and shot with it.

Right, tough guy?

Odd, when perps are looking down the barrel of my 45, the only thing crossing their mind is cooperation. I should add instantly polite.

 

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. The criminal should never be protected, why is it some people want to protect and coddle the unjust while doing nothing for the *just*?
2. The unjust person was doing evil, the *just* persons were doing nothing worthy of getting robbed and or killed, happens everyday *just* people standing infront of the guns of the unjust, actually get murdered *all the time* .
3. And yet we have to listen to some people who want to defend evil, the unjust, no matter how justified they were killed in the very act of doing evil to other innocent *just* people.
4. But if it were *YOU* being held at gun point, and you didn't know for sure you were about to die, and you were a *just* and innocent bystander, and the hammer got clicked while his gun was pointed at your guts, and you were *just* about at *the end*, you would be one grateful fuck when some 28 year old man with a conceal license, stood forth and popped the fucker in the head, oh yeah!
5. It would be a *THANK GOD* moment for anyone, even the atheist fucks.
6. Get real folks!
7. And thats a one move/post, *CHECKMATE*!!!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

 

[Amelia]

FTR, the customer wasn't charged.

"The surveillance video showed he acted reasonably and in a controlled manner," Chisholm said. "He disrupted an act that potentially exposed himself and others to death or great bodily harm. And under the unique facts and circumstances of this case, it would not be appropriate to charge him with any potential crimes or ordinance violations."

Chisholm said the shooter was courageous, and put himself in danger to protect others, therefore he won't be charged.

Man Who Shot Aldi's Robber Won't Face Charges - Milwaukee News Story - WISN Milwaukee

 

[old navy]

FTR, the customer wasn't charged.

"The surveillance video showed he acted reasonably and in a controlled manner," Chisholm said. "He disrupted an act that potentially exposed himself and others to death or great bodily harm. And under the unique facts and circumstances of this case, it would not be appropriate to charge him with any potential crimes or ordinance violations."

Chisholm said the shooter was courageous, and put himself in danger to protect others, therefore he won't be charged.

Man Who Shot Aldi's Robber Won't Face Charges - Milwaukee News Story - WISN Milwaukee

Thanks for the update.

You gotta love a happy ending.

 

[Ernie S.]

Tough guy? Are you willing to try to take my gun from me? Neither are most would be felons.

What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about me wanting to take your gun away from you? I don't want your gun. Feel free to keep it.

I see your point - all I ask is that you see mine. For every guy like you who may be able to use a gun and not have to worry about having it taken away from him, I submit there are others, who are not as experienced as yourself and who, if they attempted to confront a bad guy with a gun in their hand, might be in real trouble.

George, I have always suggested to those who are not sure they have the proper mindset and marksmanship to shoot and kill the target when the situation necessitates drawing the weapon, that it is better for them NOT to carry a firearm. There are after all, sub-lethal personal protection options available to those so inclined. It is a VERY bad idea to draw a weapon on anyone, without intending to fire it; any open shot should be taken as soon as the weapon lines up on the target, and ideally that should be two shots, as fast as possible, the first aimed center of mass, the second at the head.

Incidentally, I can tell you, after a good many competitive shooting events, that the average police officer is typically a very mediocre shot with his duty weapon (they simply don't practice enough) , and a whole lot of civilian shooters are considerably better than that.

Some are excellent shots, but hitting a paper target isn't the same as taking a life. It's mind control as much as mechanics.

 

[whitehall]

The political climate in Wisconsin is not exactly friendly to NRA members and democrats can be very angry and vindictive. For that reason alone a hero with a concealed handgun might face charges while the robber gets a break.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Wow! Some really intricate legal and moral issues involved here.

First off, it appears (to me, anyway) that the shooter was within his legal rights to draw down on the bad guys because at least one of them was displaying a weapon (a shotgun). It doesn't matter that the shooter was not the person being robbed. Deadly force can be used to defend against deadly force against others.

Now, having said that, last time I looked, vigilantism is against the law - which puts two different aspects of society on a collision course with each other in a society that allows concealed carry of weapons. Suddnely, in such a society, there are a whole lot of potential vigilantes walking around all over the place, aren't there? And what happens when they act as such? That would seem to be the question in this case.

I'm not sure I think that our society would be better off with a bunch of armed, potential vigilantes out there. Which is worse - that a store gets robbed or that people die? Now, we are getting into a philosophical position where reasonable minds can certainly differ.

I don't think that the "prohibition against guns" in the store in this particular case is going to mean anything. Under the facts of this case, I say shooter wins. But, that is not to say that I endorse such activity.

Shooting someone who is committing a robbery is not vigilantism, tracking them down later and shooting them is.

Good point. My choice of the term "viglante" was probably not well taken. That does not change the fact that, generally speaking, police officers are the preferred method for taking crime-commiting felons into cusdtody and/or stopping crimes in progress, not armed citizens who presumably do not have the training or experience to do the type of job a police officer could.

You dial 911, I'll dial 1911 - we'll see who gets there first.

The police cannot possibly react fact enough to deal with situations like this.
Thus, people smartly take advantage of the ability to arm themselves.
:shrug:

 

[Amelia]

Another wrinkle in that case:

A gun rights advocacy group has taken Milwaukee police to task for refusing to give back a gun used in an Aldi grocery store shooting that was ruled justifiable and legal.

Police say the gun is still evidence in the case.

Gun group wants police to return weapon used in justified Aldi's shooting - JSOnline


Guess that's called picking your battles - do you want to thwart a crime now or do you want to still have your gun available in case you need it to protect your family?

 

[old navy]

Another wrinkle in that case:

A gun rights advocacy group has taken Milwaukee police to task for refusing to give back a gun used in an Aldi grocery store shooting that was ruled justifiable and legal.

Police say the gun is still evidence in the case.

Gun group wants police to return weapon used in justified Aldi's shooting - JSOnline


Guess that's called picking your battles - do you want to thwart a crime now or do you want to still have your gun available in case you need it to protect your family?

Earlier this week I purchased a S&W M686. It makes 11 firearms in the house and on my person.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Another wrinkle in that case:

A gun rights advocacy group has taken Milwaukee police to task for refusing to give back a gun used in an Aldi grocery store shooting that was ruled justifiable and legal.

Police say the gun is still evidence in the case.

Gun group wants police to return weapon used in justified Aldi's shooting - JSOnline


Guess that's called picking your battles - do you want to thwart a crime now or do you want to still have your gun available in case you need it to protect your family?

Earlier this week I purchased a S&W M686. It makes 11 firearms in the house and on my person.

I have a 4" M620, essentially the same gun. My wife carries it.