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law school forget it, 5 of my child hood friends went to law school in nyc, and have well over 125 grand in loans to pay back.
It's disgusting
From my own experience, now a days, you need a graduate degree to get a good job. But the amount of money you have to spend to obtain a bachelor's and a master's degree doesn't necessarily translate to a job that pays in proportion to what you spent.
Why aren't people screaming that tution prices should be lowered? Parents now have to plan for their children's college education as soon as they are born. It would make sense if the college education brought with it some sort of job security, but everyone knows that that isn't the case. People complain about the price of houses, gas, food, etc. Why isn't college education on the list especially since it is becoming more and more a necessity?
Nonsense.
Liberal Arts education used to be the degree one got that lead to leadership positions in most industries.
Technologists used to be thought clever, but not leadership material.
They were thought not well rounded people, and were basically thought of as TOOLS to be used by the master class.
In fact most Ivy leagues schools started out with only one major...religion. Over time, other majors, including technical majors were added to most colleges and universities.
Clearly a liberal arts degree in social sciences or the humanities is a poor investment if the purpose of your education is making a living nowadays, I quite agree with that sentiment, Zoom.
Our society will, of course, suffer for that in the long run for that, because, while technical education is a great way of making a a living, a society truly needs people to have a well rounded education, too.
Interesting statistic. Do we graduate as many or more computer programmers, today, as we did in 1930, do you think?
Very true. The world, or at least our world today, is really all about business .. the BUSINESS of medicine, the BUSINESS of science, the BUSINESS of engineering.
In fact I'd go so far to to suggest that that philosophy is at the very heart of most of what people find most annoying about our world today.
Not that business exists, but that everything much be reduced to the bottom line, even if by doing so we make our world a place where the only thing that matters is money, and NOT people.
But hey, I realize that that is my prejudiced value system speaking, too.
Still, I think we need to strike a balance between the business of living in a material world, and the art of being humans living in the complex and sometimes perplexing society those businesses helped to create.
You bias against academic subjects notwithstanding, to suggest that those academic fields are "crap" is sort of shortsighted, I think.
One of the "crap" subjects you are complaining about is the one which makes it possible for you and I to be having this discussion right now, champ. It's called the ART of rhetoric.
I'd go so far as to say that while the techical fields make a wealthier civilized life possible, the subjects which you are now characterizings as "crap" ARE just as important to having a civilized world as any techology we will ever invent or discover.
It would be an impoverished world indeed if there were no arts or social sciences, I think.
So, to summarize, while I completely agree with you that only the scions can really afford a liberal arts education, today, I think the world is a sadder, meaner, and less humanistic place, because of that change in our value system.
Liberal arts and science are really the foundation upon which the technical sciences were built.
We need experts in all fields, but we also need to fund those fields so that they too can continue to bring good things to life.
And that is what this society is failing to do.
Now I happen to be an educator.
I need funding, just like any scientist or engineer does, to build my educational system.
Believe me when I tell you that money is tight in that field.
And that really is a damned shame too, because I have to tell you that the return on investment for my project is better than the return on investment for most things that we invest in in this society.
For the price of a medium sized tank, I could develop an online educational system that would serve millions people a year for NOTHING.
As my mother would have said, we are being penny wise and pound foolish, when it comes to investing in education.
I get notices for grant funding every day by email/
90% of them are for science and technology funding and very very few of them have anything to do with the BUSINESS of education.
There are too many people getting degrees. Thanks to watered-down high school curriculums, a bachelor's is the new high school diploma, and a master's is the new bachelor's.
Then you've got the problem of people getting in through grants that wouldn't have a few decades back, so working your way through college isn't as viable anymore. See Point #1, above.
But really, the cost of college is just another symptom of underestimated inflation, in industries that can't be outsourced to china: energy, housing, health care, education. See, these type of things are not something you purchase often, so it doesn't register as inflation in people's minds. We've seen fairly steady prices at Wal-Mart for 10 or more years, so we think things are okay. In fact, Wal-Mart prices should have dropped during this time, while other things remained steady--that's if we had a sane monetary policy during Greenspan's reign.
Nonsense.
Liberal Arts education used to be the degree one got that lead to leadership positions in most industries.
Technologists used to be thought clever, but not leadership material.
They were thought not well rounded people, and were basically thought of as TOOLS to be used by the master class.
In fact most Ivy leagues schools started out with only one major...religion. Over time, other majors, including technical majors were added to most colleges and universities.
Clearly a liberal arts degree in social sciences or the humanities is a poor investment if the purpose of your education is making a living nowadays, I quite agree with that sentiment, Zoom.
Our society will, of course, suffer for that in the long run for that, because, while technical education is a great way of making a a living, a society truly needs people to have a well rounded education, too.
Interesting statistic. Do we graduate as many or more computer programmers, today, as we did in 1930, do you think?
Very true. The world, or at least our world today, is really all about business .. the BUSINESS of medicine, the BUSINESS of science, the BUSINESS of engineering.
In fact I'd go so far to to suggest that that philosophy is at the very heart of most of what people find most annoying about our world today.
Not that business exists, but that everything much be reduced to the bottom line, even if by doing so we make our world a place where the only thing that matters is money, and NOT people.
But hey, I realize that that is my prejudiced value system speaking, too.
Still, I think we need to strike a balance between the business of living in a material world, and the art of being humans living in the complex and sometimes perplexing society those businesses helped to create.
You bias against academic subjects notwithstanding, to suggest that those academic fields are "crap" is sort of shortsighted, I think.
One of the "crap" subjects you are complaining about is the one which makes it possible for you and I to be having this discussion right now, champ. It's called the ART of rhetoric.
I'd go so far as to say that while the techical fields make a wealthier civilized life possible, the subjects which you are now characterizings as "crap" ARE just as important to having a civilized world as any techology we will ever invent or discover.
It would be an impoverished world indeed if there were no arts or social sciences, I think.
So, to summarize, while I completely agree with you that only the scions can really afford a liberal arts education, today, I think the world is a sadder, meaner, and less humanistic place, because of that change in our value system.
Liberal arts and science are really the foundation upon which the technical sciences were built.
We need experts in all fields, but we also need to fund those fields so that they too can continue to bring good things to life.
And that is what this society is failing to do.
Now I happen to be an educator.
I need funding, just like any scientist or engineer does, to build my educational system.
Believe me when I tell you that money is tight in that field.
And that really is a damned shame too, because I have to tell you that the return on investment for my project is better than the return on investment for most things that we invest in in this society.
For the price of a medium sized tank, I could develop an online educational system that would serve millions people a year for NOTHING.
As my mother would have said, we are being penny wise and pound foolish, when it comes to investing in education.
I get notices for grant funding every day by email/
90% of them are for science and technology funding and very very few of them have anything to do with the BUSINESS of education.
no kidding, Gates didnt even put any kind of winsock in windows, it was an after thoughtReally Allie, get a clue. Bill had almost nothing to do with the internet, he only made computers a household tool. However, so far most of our greatest tech advances are from drop-outs.
Again, it is highly dependent on what the degrees are in. If you have a 4yr Nursing, Actuary, Programming, most hard engineering disciplines, you are in pretty good shape. If you are coming out with History, English, Sociology, generic "Management", Music and Art.....best find a greeting job at WalMart because you are going to starve in this economy.
fair enough
god I miss college life
no kidding, Gates didnt even put any kind of winsock in windows, it was an after thought
and the very first one was shareware, if i remember correctly
As my mother would have said, we are being penny wise and pound foolish, when it comes to investing in education.
sure they do, AlGore invented itYep, Unix was the first OS with networking built in, Apples Mac was the second. Windoze was again dead last in the Networking department.
Funny side joke:
Most college grads from tech schools don't even know how the world wide web got started much less how it works. Hell, even X-Files fans know more about it than most new graduates.
link to article from the NYT
To put things in perspective, I graduated with a BA from a private college in '64 broke but with no debt. My father was a sawmill worker, my mom a stay at home (that was expected at that time for the most part.)
I graduated with an MA from a state college in '73. There was no tuition at that time, just a $50 a year fee.
It is getting increasingly difficult to find a job that pays a living wage without a degree, and a degree is getting more and more expensive to obtain. Of course, those trends have been going on for a long time, as you can see.
Solutions, anyone?
CLEP testing! College Level Exam Program. You can test out of one year of school through self study. Not that hard if you are right out of highschool. Math, English, Social Sciences, Electives, Humanities.
Look up CLEP test. Contact your local community college.
They don't tell you about these because they want you to take their classes and pay the money.
I suspect Community Colleges will become more popular. Then you only have to pay the premiums on your last 3 years of school.
You can also apply for DANTE's? They could be called something different where you are, but you can use life experiences/work experience to earn UP TO another 30 credits.
So a person who is a MCSE Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer, can CLEP out of 30 credits and at some schools, can get 30 credits for having the MCSE. That's an associates right there.
I was an enrollment counselor at a University. You would be surprised how many people didn't do the CLEP. Why didn't they do it? Because of the fear of the unknown. It's easier to just take the classes. But, 1 year of school was $10,000. They could CLEP out of $10K and maybe save $8k.
And they don't persue the experience credits either. Why? Because they don't know how. You have to put a package together and submit it to the school. You have to write a paper explaining your life experiences. And it's just easier to take the classes, even though in reality, it is not easier. It's just simpler.
So CLEP TESTING!!!
About the College Level Examination Program (CLEP)
CLEP: Registering for CLEP Exams
About CLEP
Save Time. Save Money. Take CLEP.
The College-Level Examination Program® (CLEP) gives you the opportunity to receive college credit for what you already know by earning qualifying scores on any of 34 examinations. Earn credit for knowledge you've acquired through independent study, prior course work, on-the-job training, professional development, cultural pursuits, or internships.
I'd never heard of CLEP testing. Could it be that the colleges are in the business of selling credits, and so would just as soon we didn't know about CLEP?
No, couldn't be. They're altruistic, as we all know, and not profit oriented at all.
Sure, that's it, sure.
I looked it up, and found this:
As for credit for life experiences, I should be able to get a PHD in that by now.
