Collectivism Written Into US Constitution: General Welfare

[OohPooPahDoo]

Dante, BTW - is one of the biggest pricks on this entire message board.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Oh look, check it out Skull Pilot, as Dante has pointed out - says here the Congress can spend money to PROVIDE for the general welfare. Did you know it said that? I'm sure you did, being a lover of the Constitution.

The current interpretation of that clause is the reason we are 16 trillion in debt.

You see the part about "uniform throughout" don't you? tell me what pork packed bill promotes the welfare of the country uniformly throughout?

The "current intepretation" ?

LOL!

Are you telling me that at some point the clause did not mean literally what it says - that the Congress may raise taxes to provide for the general welfare? That is literally what it says - does it mean something other than that?

There are other schools of thought on the clause.

The Hamilton interpretation is the one we seem to be following.

Alexander Hamilton contended that Congress’s taxing authority is “plenary, and indefinite,” and that “the objects to which it may be appropriated [i.e., the general welfare] are no less comprehensive.”

Madison and Jefferson shared a different opinion. It holds that the preamble’s General Welfare Clause, right before the Constitution’s exacting enumeration of Congress’s powers, merely makes clear that Congress has the authority to raise revenue and spend in furtherance of those specified powers.

Tell me which do you prefer: The blank check approach of Hamilton that got us where we are today or the restrictive approach favored by Jefferson and Madison that would not allow the government to spend money on anything but its enumerated powers?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

General Welfare -                                  Letters of Liberty

 

[daveman]

loser, no where did Dante say the government should make people happy.

That's what collectivism is, dimwit.

Of course, in every example throughout history, collectivism makes everyone equally miserable.

 

[daveman]

Appropriate forum, since collectivism is the left's religion.

not being 'of' the left....

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

The current interpretation of that clause is the reason we are 16 trillion in debt.

You see the part about "uniform throughout" don't you? tell me what pork packed bill promotes the welfare of the country uniformly throughout?

The "current intepretation" ?

LOL!

Are you telling me that at some point the clause did not mean literally what it says - that the Congress may raise taxes to provide for the general welfare? That is literally what it says - does it mean something other than that?

There are other schools of thought on the clause.

The Hamilton interpretation is the one we seem to be following.

Alexander Hamilton contended that Congress’s taxing authority is “plenary, and indefinite,” and that “the objects to which it may be appropriated [i.e., the general welfare] are no less comprehensive.”

Madison and Jefferson shared a different opinion. It holds that the preamble’s General Welfare Clause, right before the Constitution’s exacting enumeration of Congress’s powers, merely makes clear that Congress has the authority to raise revenue and spend in furtherance of those specified powers.

Tell me which do you prefer: The blank check approach of Hamilton that got us where we are today or the restrictive approach favored by Jefferson and Madison that would not allow the government to spend money on anything but its enumerated powers?

Its not a blank check. It does not allow congress to regulate for the general welfare - nor does it allow them to tax and spend for any purpose they choose.. It only allows them to tax and spend and only for the general welfare and common defence. If you'd read Hamilton you'd know this.

EDIT: It is a very broad power, no doubt. But it is hardly infinite. It does not allow Congress to, for instance, require every American eat 3 servings of vegetables a day. That's isn't taxing and spending, that's regulating behavior - its not allowed by the GW clause. Nor does it allow Congress to spend money to supplement the diets of only the poor people in Vermont - the benefit must be general in scope.

 

[Koios]

Collectivism Written Into US Constitution: General Welfare

US Constitution Preamble:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 8 - The U.S. Constitution

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" - US Declaration of Independence


John Stuart Mill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jeremy Bentham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

---

General Welfare legal definition of General Welfare. General Welfare synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

not a bad primer

The concern of the government for the health, peace, morality, and safety of its citizens.

Providing for the welfare of the general public is a basic goal of government. The preamble to the U.S. Constitution cites promotion of the general welfare as a primary reason for the creation of the Constitution. Promotion of the general welfare is also a stated purpose in state constitutions and statutes. The concept has sparked controversy only as a result of its inclusion in the body of the U.S. Constitution.

The first clause of Article I, Section 8, reads, "The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States." This clause, called the General Welfare Clause or the Spending Power Clause, does not grant Congress the power to legislate for the general welfare of the country; that is a power reserved to the states through the Tenth Amendment. Rather, it merely allows Congress to spend federal money for the general welfare. The principle underlying this distinction—the limitation of federal power—eventually inspired the only important disagreement over the meaning of the clause.

According to James Madison, the clause authorized Congress to spend money, but only to carry out the powers and duties specifically enumerated in the subsequent clauses of Article I, Section 8, and elsewhere in the Constitution, not to meet the seemingly infinite needs of the general welfare. Alexander Hamilton maintained that the clause granted Congress the power to spend without limitation for the general welfare of the nation. The winner of this debate was not declared for 150 years.

In United States v. Butler, 56 S. Ct. 312, 297 U.S. 1, 80 L. Ed. 477 (1936), the U.S. Supreme Court invalidated a federal agricultural spending program because a specific congressional power over agricultural production appeared nowhere in the Constitution. According to the Court in Butler, the spending program invaded a right reserved to the states by the Tenth Amendment.

Though the Court decided that Butler was consistent with Madison's philosophy of limited federal government, it adopted Hamilton's interpretation of the General Welfare Clause, which gave Congress broad powers to spend federal money. It also established that determination of the general welfare would be left to the discretion of Congress. In its opinion, the Court warned that to challenge a federal expense on the ground that it did not promote the general welfare would "naturally require a showing that by no reasonable possibility can the challenged legislation fall within the wide range of discretion permitted to the Congress." The Court then obliquely confided,"[H]ow great is the extent of that range … we need hardly remark." "[D]espite the breadth of the legislative discretion," the Court continued, "our duty to hear and to render judgment remains." The Court then rendered the federal agricultural spending program at issue invalid under the Tenth Amendment.

With Butler as precedent, the Supreme Court's interest in determining whether congressional spending promotes the general welfare has withered. In South Dakota v. Dole, 483 U.S. 203, 107 S. Ct. 2793, 97 L. Ed. 2d 171 (1987), the Court reviewed legislation allowing the secretary of transportation to withhold a percentage of federal highway funds from states that did not raise their legal drinking age to twenty-one. In holding that the statute was a valid use of congressional spending power, the Court in Dole questioned "whether 'general welfare' is a judicially enforceable restriction at all."

Congress appropriates money for a seemingly endless number of national interests, ranging from federal courts, policing, imprisonment, and national security to social programs, environmental protection, and education. No federal court has struck down a spending program on the ground that it failed to promote the general welfare. However, federal spending programs have been struck down on other constitutional grounds

It is not! And you'd be a fool and a communist to think that welfare = welfare, since the FF all read Altas Shrugged and think Ayn Rand is the cat's pajamas, even if she hadn't been born yet, praise babyjesus.

Now go back to sucking Lenin dick you damn commie!!!!

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

collectivism written into us constitution: General welfare

us constitution preamble:

"we the people of the united states, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the united states of america."

u.s. Constitution - article 1 section 8 - the u.s. Constitution


"life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" - us declaration of independence


john stuart mill - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

jeremy bentham - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

---

general welfare legal definition of general welfare. General welfare synonyms by the free online law dictionary.

not a bad primer

though the court decided that butler was consistent with madison's philosophy of limited federal government, it adopted hamilton's interpretation of the general welfare clause, which gave congress broad powers to spend federal money. it also established that determination of the general welfare would be left to the discretion of congress. In its opinion, the court warned that to challenge a federal expense on the ground that it did not promote the general welfare would "naturally require a showing that by no reasonable possibility can the challenged legislation fall within the wide range of discretion permitted to the congress." the court then obliquely confided,"[h]ow great is the extent of that range … we need hardly remark." "[d]espite the breadth of the legislative discretion," the court continued, "our duty to hear and to render judgment remains." the court then rendered the federal agricultural spending program at issue invalid under the tenth amendment.

With butler as precedent, the supreme court's interest in determining whether congressional spending promotes the general welfare has withered. In south dakota v. Dole, 483 u.s. 203, 107 s. Ct. 2793, 97 l. Ed. 2d 171 (1987), the court reviewed legislation allowing the secretary of transportation to withhold a percentage of federal highway funds from states that did not raise their legal drinking age to twenty-one. In holding that the statute was a valid use of congressional spending power, the court in dole questioned "whether 'general welfare' is a judicially enforceable restriction at all."

congress appropriates money for a seemingly endless number of national interests, ranging from federal courts, policing, imprisonment, and national security to social programs, environmental protection, and education. No federal court has struck down a spending program on the ground that it failed to promote the general welfare. However, federal spending programs have been struck down on other constitutional grounds

it is not! And you'd be a fool and a communist to think that welfare = welfare, since the ff all read altas shrugged and think ayn rand is the cat's pajamas, even if she hadn't been born yet, praise babyjesus.

Now go back to sucking lenin dick you damn commie!!!!

lol!

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

flame thread. troll thread

flame thread. troll thread

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

flame thread. troll thread

flame thread. troll thread

Welcome to what passes for argument and debate at USMB these days

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

ANTI-UNION = ANTI-FREE MARKET ANTI-OohPooPahDoo

 

[Koios]

ANTI-UNION = ANTI-FREE MARKET ANTI-OohPooPahDoo

Troll!!!

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

ANTI-UNION = ANTI-FREE MARKET ANTI-OohPooPahDoo

Dante thinks he is the most awesomest person in the world.

He is the pinnacle of liberal "elite" - a coffee house revolutionary.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Are we sure Dante isn't Keith Olbermann?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

fishing and bait....


lesson 1


there will be a test in Wednesday

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

fishing and bait....


lesson 1


there will be a test in Wednesday

I think you should stop doing LSD.

 

[Koios]

Are we sure Dante isn't Keith Olbermann?

No; just connected to Keith Olbermann, who is pals with the Center of the Universe, Kevin Bacon, from whom we are all merely 6 degrees of separation from. So really, Olbermann is the center of the center of the universe, when you apply strict logic.

 

[Koios]

fishing and bait....


lesson 1


there will be a test in Wednesday

I think you should stop doing LSD.

No one should stop doing LSD. It's outta sight, man!!!!