Cold Harbor: 141 Years Ago Today

[onedomino]

There are many problems that America confronts today. But we have it easy compared to Cold Harbor, 3 June 1846: the deadliest seven minutes in American history.

At Cold Harbor, Lee gets there first and digs in. The North attacks at 4:30 a.m. on June 3, 1864, suffering 7,000 casualties in roughly 7 minutes. It is the only mistake Grant ever admits to making. Lee and Grant are deadlocked, and the North has now lost 50,000 men in one month. http://pbsvideodb.pbs.org/programs/all_chapters.asp?item_id=7900

see also: http://americancivilwar.com/statepic/va/va062.html

 

[padisha emperor]

wow...

hard human cost.

Maybe somebody should creat a thread about the bloodiest battles/campaign.

 

[onedomino]

wow...

hard human cost.

Maybe somebody should creat a thread about the bloodiest battles/campaign.

Some people are not aware of the magnitude of American Civil War causalities. Shelby Foote, the Civil War historian, observed that in one of the first major battles of the war, Shiloh, there were 25,000 causalities, about the same as Waterloo. And there were 25 more Waterloos to come before the Civil War would be over. There were 53,000 causalities at Gettysburg in only three days of fighting. All together, the American Civil War produced 660,000 deaths, more than 2 percent of the population of the country at that time. I think it remains true that more Americans died in the Civil War than all other American wars combined, including WW1 and 2.

 

[dmp]

Good thing the North wasn't chock-full of liberals...they would have quit after day one, so they could 'meet, and discuss and recognize their 'differences'.

 

[manu1959]

1. Stanlingrad (WW2), September 1942 - January 1943........1,109,000
2. Berlin (WW2), 16 April - 7 May 1945......................................450,000
3. Leningrad (WW2), 8 September 1941 - 27 January 1944.....445,000
4. Somme (WW1), 1 July - 18 November 1916..........................307,000
5. Kursk (WW2), 4 - 22 July 1943..............................................306,000
6. Verdun (WW1), 21 February - 16 December 1916................263,000
7. Moscow (WW2), September 1941 - January 1942................250,000
8. Okinawa (WW2), 1 April - 21 June 1945...............................148,000
9. Gallipoli (WW1), 19 February 1915 - 9 January 1916............133,000
10. Passchendaele (WW1), 31 July - 12 November 1917............131,000
http://www.netc.coop/goodies/top10/bloodiestbattles
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm

 

[no1tovote4]

Not only the casualties of war...

If you think the prisoners in GITMO are treated bad read all about Andersonville.

http://www.nps.gov/ande/

 

[manu1959]

Not only the casualties of war...

If you think the prisoners in GITMO are treated bad read all about Andersonville.

http://www.nps.gov/ande/

see what happens when the left runs a prison!

 

[padisha emperor]

1. Stanlingrad (WW2), September 1942 - January 1943........1,109,000
2. Berlin (WW2), 16 April - 7 May 1945......................................450,000
3. Leningrad (WW2), 8 September 1941 - 27 January 1944.....445,000
4. Somme (WW1), 1 July - 18 November 1916..........................307,000
5. Kursk (WW2), 4 - 22 July 1943..............................................306,000
6. Verdun (WW1), 21 February - 16 December 1916................263,000
7. Moscow (WW2), September 1941 - January 1942................250,000
8. Okinawa (WW2), 1 April - 21 June 1945...............................148,000
9. Gallipoli (WW1), 19 February 1915 - 9 January 1916............133,000
10. Passchendaele (WW1), 31 July - 12 November 1917............131,000
http://www.netc.coop/goodies/top10/bloodiestbattles
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm

I disagree for Verdun : your number of casualties are only for ONE camp : the total of the casualties is between 500,000 and 700,000, about half of Germans, half of French. France stop Germans, but with a such high cost...
Then number of total casualties is not really definitive, there is several hundreds of thousand of missing. (probably dead) About 3000 deads each day.


And there is not bloody battles only in the XXth c. :


Battle of Eylau, 02/08/1807 : 50,000 !!! (about 20,000 French, 30,000 Russians) in one day


siege of Sebastopol by the french army (september 1854-sepetmber 1855) : 225,000 (95,000 French, 20,000 British, 110,000 Russians)

 

[USViking]

1. Stanlingrad (WW2), September 1942 - January 1943........1,109,000
2. Berlin (WW2), 16 April - 7 May 1945......................................450,000
3. Leningrad (WW2), 8 September 1941 - 27 January 1944.....445,000
4. Somme (WW1), 1 July - 18 November 1916..........................307,000
5. Kursk (WW2), 4 - 22 July 1943..............................................306,000
6. Verdun (WW1), 21 February - 16 December 1916................263,000
7. Moscow (WW2), September 1941 - January 1942................250,000
8. Okinawa (WW2), 1 April - 21 June 1945...............................148,000
9. Gallipoli (WW1), 19 February 1915 - 9 January 1916............133,000
10. Passchendaele (WW1), 31 July - 12 November 1917............131,000
http://www.netc.coop/goodies/top10/bloodiestbattles
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm

I think the Stalingrad numbers may be two or more times too high, even if the link counted civilians and those who died of wounds, and in captivity.

German combat deaths were likely under 200000 (although they would be higher if those who died in captivity are counted), and Stalingrad was one battle where German losses may have exceeded USSR losses.

 

[gaffer]

You also need to qualify what is meant by a battle. Stalingrad is referred to as the battle of Stalingrad but it was a series of engagements that went on months. When two armies meet and engage, for an hour or days, you have a battle. When one withdraws or they come to a standstill with neither side moving it ceases to be a battle and becomes more of a campaign. A battle is an individual event that begins and ends in a reasonably short period of time. A campaign is a series of battles that can go on for years.

Shiloh and Waterloo were battles. Stalingrad was a campaign.

 

[padisha emperor]

I agree.

But the modern history change the way of the battles : it's rare to see, in the last century, battles, which were only during a single day, or even a single week.

How many people were killed at Waterloo ? Because everybody speak of it, but I believe that the bloodiest battle of these wars was Eylau.

 

[USViking]

You also need to qualify what is meant by a battle. Stalingrad is referred to as the battle of Stalingrad but it was a series of engagements that went on months. When two armies meet and engage, for an hour or days, you have a battle. When one withdraws or they come to a standstill with neither side moving it ceases to be a battle and becomes more of a campaign. A battle is an individual event that begins and ends in a reasonably short period of time. A campaign is a series of battles that can go on for years.

Shiloh and Waterloo were battles. Stalingrad was a campaign.

My observations hold for the entire Stalingrad campaign, during which German and USSR forces were locked in close combat virtually on a 24/7 basis for months.

The entire German 6th Army was destroyed, but of its original strength of about 200000, 90000 surrendered, which would leave "only" some 120000 combat deaths.

Other German units were involved, but I doubt their losses anywhere near as high as those of the 6th Army, so total German combat deaths in the city should be well under 200000.

Tactically, the two sides were on the offensive against entrenched and fortified forces in the city about an equal amount of time, so they should each have suffered equally from the higher losses the offensive force would normally have taken in such circumstances.

There was a sizable allied Romanian force operating around the city, but I do not think the Germans trusted it to do much fighting. It surrendered in its entirety along with the Germans

Losses suffered by all sides, including Romanian, Italian and other German allies during the USSR encircling counter offensive, and during German relief efforts were undoubtedly heavy, but I do not think they could have been heavy enough to push combat deaths halfway to the figure of 1 million.

 

[Annie]

Some people are not aware of the magnitude of American Civil War causalities. Shelby Foote, the Civil War historian, observed that in one of the first major battles of the war, Shiloh, there were 25,000 causalities, about the same as Waterloo. And there were 25 more Waterloos to come before the Civil War would be over. There were 53,000 causalities at Gettysburg in only three days of fighting. All together, the American Civil War produced 660,000 deaths, more than 2 percent of the population of the country at that time. I think it remains true that more Americans died in the Civil War than all other American wars combined, including WW1 and 2.

I am just starting to read this series. I'm about 650 pages into the first volume. I've never really delved before into battles, but I've completed the 'ideas' part of most wars now. So it's time. I'm starting with the Civil War, the most documented war.

I've been getting shivers and tears and perspective as I read. I've heard about brother vs. brother, but this first volume brings home just how divisive this war was.

 

[Gunny]

Some people are not aware of the magnitude of American Civil War causalities. Shelby Foote, the Civil War historian, observed that in one of the first major battles of the war, Shiloh, there were 25,000 causalities, about the same as Waterloo. And there were 25 more Waterloos to come before the Civil War would be over. There were 53,000 causalities at Gettysburg in only three days of fighting. All together, the American Civil War produced 660,000 deaths, more than 2 percent of the population of the country at that time. I think it remains true that more Americans died in the Civil War than all other American wars combined, including WW1 and 2.

It's kind of misleading since in general, only Americans fought and died in the US Civil War.

You also have the fact that until the end, both armies were using modern weapons with Napoleonic tactics which was little short of point blank murder.