Cluster Munitions Treaty Leaves US Behind

[uscitizen]

Yes... the children of the guy who happened to live in the same country as the target started the war...

Or his grandchildren. The biggest thing about Cluster Munitions is that they leave behind tons of unexploded ordinance, and they can last for decades. These things still turn up and kill people in Laos for godsakes.

In Kosovo, 62.5% of the civilian victims in the year after the conflict (March 1999–August 2000) were boys under 18 (Handicap International). Those killed or injured by submunitions were five times more likely to be under the age of 14 than those injured by anti-personnel mines (ICRC). Data gathered by UXO Lao since 1999 in areas where it operates indicates that more than 50% of the victims in Laos are children. In Cambodia, boys aged between 6 and 15 represent 37.8% of all cluster submunition victims (Handicap International, 2007)

Incidents involving children usually occur while they are playing, carrying out livelihood activities or collecting scrap metal. In Afghanistan, children make up 36.3% of overall victims and 40% of post-strike victims. The most common activity at the time of these incidents is tending animals, with children constituting 52% of those that become victims while tending animals. (Handicap International, 2007). In Laos, the price of scrap metal rose significantly between 2002 and 2005, and children were reported as being regularly engaged in scrap collecting, including the collection of explosive ordnance (GICHD).

http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/cluster-munitions-victims-factsheet-020208/$File/cluster-munition-victims-factsheet-2010.pdf

Now all of this is pretty extreme in this day and age, but of course, anything for the Power and Glory of the Empire! The blood of their children for decades to come will teach them to Fear.

For God, King and Country!

http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/cluster-munition-contamination-factsheet-020208/$File/cluster-munition-contamination-factsheet-2010.pdf

There are still unexploded shells from the civil war around, should we outlaw cannons? Bombs from WWII, should we make it really easy and outlaw planes?

All this treaty will do is make a few do gooders feel good about themselves, and prohibit the countries that actually need these weapons to take out armored columns no alternative except surrender. That might work in your fantasy world, but the real world needs more than wishful thinking.

Yep lose and push it to the absurd.
Quantum windbag is very fitting.

I have no sympathy for those who advocate actions that take the lives of innocent children.
Just wastes of skin who need to be assigned cluster munitions clean up duties.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMYnWTd8v8M

That is awesome.

When I get ready to kill my enemies, that is EXACTLY the kind of shit I want.

The object of war isn't to impress the world with your kindness in vanquishing the enemy. It is to kill, conquer, and defeat.

There are no rules, and those who seek to apply them are only fooling themselves.

Sounds like exactly what Genghis Kahn or Osama bin Laden would tell the troops before committing mass murder against noncombatants...

Ghengis Kahn might say that, but bin Laden talks about the glory of dying for Allah. I prefer Kahn, and Patton, myself.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3J9hmCLmvg[/ame]

Why play the game if you are going to loose?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yep lose and push it to the absurd.
Quantum windbag is very fitting.

I have no sympathy for those who advocate actions that take the lives of innocent children.
Just wastes of skin who need to be assigned cluster munitions clean up duties.

That is just sad.

Are innocent children better off if they are blown apart by bad guys than good guys? The difference between the good guys and the bad guys is the good guys try not to blow innocent children up, the bad guys strap bombs to them so that they can blow up other children.

Keep your false morals to yourself.

 

[JBeukema]

That is awesome.

When I get ready to kill my enemies, that is EXACTLY the kind of shit I want.

The object of war isn't to impress the world with your kindness in vanquishing the enemy. It is to kill, conquer, and defeat.

There are no rules, and those who seek to apply them are only fooling themselves.

Sounds like exactly what Genghis Kahn or Osama bin Laden would tell the troops before committing mass murder against noncombatants...

Ghengis Kahn might say that, but bin Laden talks about the glory of dying for Allah. I prefer Kahn, and Patton, myself.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3J9hmCLmvg[/ame]

Why play the game if you are going to loose?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-FqlSZ8nrY[/ame]

 

[Epsilon Delta]

There are still unexploded shells from the civil war around, should we outlaw cannons? Bombs from WWII, should we make it really easy and outlaw planes?

All this treaty will do is make a few do gooders feel good about themselves, and prohibit the countries that actually need these weapons to take out armored columns no alternative except surrender. That might work in your fantasy world, but the real world needs more than wishful thinking.

You're the one who lives in a fantasy world if you think you're the "good guys." Take a look around windbag:

That is awesome.

When I get ready to kill my enemies, that is EXACTLY the kind of shit I want.

The object of war isn't to impress the world with your kindness in vanquishing the enemy. It is to kill, conquer, and defeat.

There are no rules, and those who seek to apply them are only fooling themselves.

My personal opinion is keep cluster munitions and return to using Napalm as well. Anyone that thinks war is clean and neat is a nut job. Same with land mines, we never signed that treaty either and continue to use them. They are effective.

Yeah, there's your "good guys."

You wanna know an incredibly effective way to save 100% of your Soldiers lives and destroy 100% of the enemy? Carpet bomb the enemy with nuclear warheads. I can assure you that if you released a big enough payload on Iraq and Afghanistan back in the day, you would lost no soldiers and killed all the enemy for a great victory.

Of course, 95% of the 60 million people you would have evaporated would've been women, children and civilians, but hey war is hell right? And as long as the good guys do it...

 

[zzzz]

Ask the people in Hamburg and Dresden who were the good guy or bad guys.

The attack during the last week of July, 1943, Operation Gomorrah, created one of the greatest firestorms raised by the RAF and United States Army Air Force in WWII, killing 42,600 civilians and wounding 37,000 in Hamburg and practically destroying the entire city. "Wikipeda

Another 20-25,000 civilians were killed in the bombing of Dresden on Feb 13-15 and 15,000 civilians in the bombing of Pforzheim in 1945.

A-Bomb drops on Japan caused 90,000–166,000 civilian deaths in Hiroshima and 60,000–80,000 in Nagasaki although half of these occurred more than 2 days after the explosions.

War is not civilized and the attempt by nations to civilize it makes war more possible. Cluster muntitions are a force multiplier, just like the machine gun. If we were to ever get in a war with China and we had ground forces facing the hordes of Chinese troops we would have to use cluster bombs to help blunt attacks or destroy convoys. Our military in Korea learned a hard lesson about wave attacks just like the Iraqis learned from the Iranian wave attacks. Without the availability of these munitions Amercian soldiers lives could be at risk in a future war.

Yes, civilians do get hurt in war but in the 70 years since WWII civilian deaths have decreased in proportion to military casualities in a conventional conflict. Technology is making better cluster weapons that hopefully will not remain active if it does not detonate on contact or after a few days. Regretfully nothing is 100% so no matter how good they are some will always remain.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You're the one who lives in a fantasy world if you think you're the "good guys." Take a look around windbag:

What makes you think I think I am the good guy? What I do know is that, comapred to the alternative, I would rather be on this side than that one.

Yeah, there's your "good guys."

You wanna know an incredibly effective way to save 100% of your Soldiers lives and destroy 100% of the enemy? Carpet bomb the enemy with nuclear warheads. I can assure you that if you released a big enough payload on Iraq and Afghanistan back in the day, you would lost no soldiers and killed all the enemy for a great victory.

Of course, 95% of the 60 million people you would have evaporated would've been women, children and civilians, but hey war is hell right? And as long as the good guys do it...

If the objective was simply to wipe them out you might have a point. Politics often changes the goals of war from the simple and makes the means of reaching those goals harder. Personally, I think it makes more sense to send everyone who is worried about using cluster bombs in and have them deal with the people who are trying to kill us. They will either end up dead, or realize that the best way to deal with them is to kill them. Either way, the problem is solved.

 

[uscitizen]

Yep lose and push it to the absurd.
Quantum windbag is very fitting.

I have no sympathy for those who advocate actions that take the lives of innocent children.
Just wastes of skin who need to be assigned cluster munitions clean up duties.

That is just sad.

Are innocent children better off if they are blown apart by bad guys than good guys? The difference between the good guys and the bad guys is the good guys try not to blow innocent children up, the bad guys strap bombs to them so that they can blow up other children.

Keep your false morals to yourself.

Umm the point of being the good guys is that you are SUPPOSED to be better than the bad guys.
Not false morals. I have lived the full horrors or war. napalm burned children, children shredded by land mines, etc
Human beings should be better than that, especially Americans.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Yep lose and push it to the absurd.
Quantum windbag is very fitting.

I have no sympathy for those who advocate actions that take the lives of innocent children.
Just wastes of skin who need to be assigned cluster munitions clean up duties.

That is just sad.

Are innocent children better off if they are blown apart by bad guys than good guys? The difference between the good guys and the bad guys is the good guys try not to blow innocent children up, the bad guys strap bombs to them so that they can blow up other children.

Keep your false morals to yourself.

Umm the point of being the good guys is that you are SUPPOSED to be better than the bad guys.
Not false morals. I have lived the full horrors or war. napalm burned children, children shredded by land mines, etc
Human beings should be better than that, especially Americans.

Lets just unilaterally disarm. I mean if we can not defend ourselves without hurting others then we should just commit ourselves to genocide by allowing all the bad guys to run over us.

You people are ignorant as hell. Using your logic we SHOULD just disarm and allow ourselves to be lead to the slaughter.

 

[Mr. H.]

Generally speaking, if bad guys don't shoot then the good guys don't shoot.

There are a lot of bad guys out there that will shoot no matter what.

 

[JBeukema]

That is just sad.

Are innocent children better off if they are blown apart by bad guys than good guys? The difference between the good guys and the bad guys is the good guys try not to blow innocent children up, the bad guys strap bombs to them so that they can blow up other children.

Keep your false morals to yourself.

Umm the point of being the good guys is that you are SUPPOSED to be better than the bad guys.
Not false morals. I have lived the full horrors or war. napalm burned children, children shredded by land mines, etc
Human beings should be better than that, especially Americans.

Lets just unilaterally disarm. I mean if we can not defend ourselves without hurting others then we should just commit ourselves to genocide by allowing all the bad guys to run over us.

You people are ignorant as hell. Using your logic we SHOULD just disarm and allow ourselves to be lead to the slaughter.

You'd have to understand logic to apply anyone's... no wonder you're so confused

 

[Epsilon Delta]

It's just ridiculous, the fear and insecurity of these people. I mean, they think you're just insane for being mildly concerned with littering a wide area with little round metal balls that EXPLODE when you touch them and can lay around for decades. Most of these places are so ridiculously poor they actually send out kids to pick up metal scarps to melt them for nickels and dimes. The mentality seems to be that unless EVERYBODY there dies they cannot be safe. I mean it's like George Carlin says, "We left a few women and children alive in Vietnam and just haven't felt good about ourselves since."

You know, if your armed soldiers and their armed soldiers want to go shoot at each other, by all means. The problem with cluster munitions is that they are far more likely to end up blowing to pieces a 10 year old shepherd boy or a pregnant woman clearing a field, 5, 10 years after hostilities have even ended. And for what? Really for what? "TO KEEP AMERICA SAFE FROM THE GOATHERDERS"

 

[JBeukema]

For what?


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Hell, take 'Nam. If the region dominos... so much potential slaver labour- er, colonization oppor- er, offshore- er, outsourcing optio- er, potential options to diversify such externalities as are associatied with the minimizing of costs in order to maximum profit margin for maximum returns... would be lost...

 

[JBeukema]

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Retard alert, now we have them citing fiction from Movies. That might explain why Liberals like to call actors to Congress that happened to once play a role as some kind of experts on what ever role they played.

War is serious business and should never happen, but reality is we have to fight wars at times, almost never due to our starting them. You dumb asses would send our troops in without the means to win. Remind us how much you support the troops again?

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

We can agrue, all day - all month - even all year (if you wish), on the morals and ethics behind a war and when to enter into armed conflict. Pre-conflict discussions are when you weigh the pro's and con's, --- determining the probability of success and failure, --- adjudicating the outcomes and benefits.

BUT, once the decision is made to go into battle --- you fight to win with every once of blood, all your strength, and with every tactic - AND - tool you have. To do anything less, negates the decision to go to war.

War is the outcome of failed diplomacy, the gloves are off. If you can't stand the horror and realities of war, armed conflict, death and destruction, THEN - don't go to war. But if the decision is made to go --- it's an all or nothing affair.

In this regard, I have to agree with the Gunny.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Si modo]

Every year this comes up and every year we don't sign it. Good.

This is an area where we excel and we know it is foolish to sign away an edge in warfare.

Our signing hasn't happened for years and it won't happen.

 

[daveman]

Might win their "hearts and minds" sooner that way.

News flash: You can't negotiate with or win over people who want nothing more than to stand over your corpse.

About like with those that drop cluster munitions on your children?

I wonder how many families in Iraq had NOT had a family member killed by the USA?

I know this runs counter to everything you hold dear, but the US military does not deliberately target civilians.

 

[daveman]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

-- John Stuart Mill

 

[JBeukema]

we have to fight wars at times, almost never due to our starting them?

At times?

When was the last time we didn't have troops in a combat zone somewhere?

We don't start them? So VietNam invaded us to prevent us from breaking away from our colonial masters? Oh, wait, it was us denying them the right to do as we did and throw off the chains of colonial exploitation and govern themselves as they wished.

Not the mention the banana republics and the military occupation and annexation of Hawaii.

But it's different when we do it, right? 'The American flag has not been planted in foreign soil to acquire more territory but for humanity's sake'