Clunkers program could drive used car prices up

[GHook93]

Do you see the cars that are being cashed in! They are gas-guzzlers! Not in high demand much more. The people buying gas guzzlers nowadays are people who can afford them. More than likely those same people are going to buy new cars.

Used cars prices are increasing because demand for used cars (at lower prices than used) are attracting people over more expensive new cars!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Do you see the cars that are being cashed in! They are gas-guzzlers! Not in high demand much more. The people buying gas guzzlers nowadays are people who can afford them. More than likely those same people are going to buy new cars.

Used cars prices are increasing because demand for used cars (at lower prices than used) are attracting people over more expensive new cars!

No, the government has created an artificial demand for new cars by paying extra to those who trade in their old cars to be destroyed. Perfectly good cars in many cases. This creates a shortage in used cars thus driving their prices up.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Obviously? Are you serious? How does a used car WITHOUT a warranty help the owner when said used car breaks down and becomes useless? Not only is the "middle income families who can't afford a new car" now stuck paying for POS car, but they can no longer use it as transportation? Obviously? Please....

Fixing a broken car is cheaper than buying new. If your car breaks you're only without transportation until it's fixed.

My 19 year old just bought her first car. She searched for about 5 weeks and found a '99 Corolla w/90K for $4500. She put down $1,200 and is paying us back the rest of it. It'll take her awhile before she's done.

My brother wanted to know why we didn't just sell her my husband's '04 Corolla (we bought it new, it has 55K on it) and just buy a new car? Because we can't afford a new car, because we don't know how we'd make those payments if my husband lost his job, because we finally don't have any car payments and firmly believe in buying the best we can afford and taking care of it - which is exactly what we did.

If someone was going to buy a new car anyway, or can afford a new car, the cash for clunkers program is icing on the cake for them (like jsanders). If you can't afford the payments of a new car . . . why would you take on the debt?

I don't think they would take on the new debt if they could not afford it or were in bad straights zoom.

Our banks and financial institutions are back on board with the "old and proficient way of lending", people actually have to qualify for the loan....Crdit is very very very tight since the CRASH of our financial markets and one of the main concern of dealers, which I heard on the news, was that they would not have enough clunker trade in prospects that would have good and strong enough credit, and with a job.... to qualify.

Ultimately, it is up to the individual's own circumstance to decide if trading in their clunker for the rebate, selling it outright on the used market, or keeping it for a few more years, is best for them.... if they even do actually qualify for a loan on the new car, ya know?

Care

Wasn't really addressing that and I don't disagree with what you posted.

Was trying to point out to VaYank that used cars have benefits.

 

[Shogun]

Well for starters, when is this Cash for Clunkers period of time going to end? They already ran through their initial funding, and then passed more. I assume when they run through that they'll pass even more. So when does the period end? When the car industry can stand on its own? History shows that any industry that gets government support ends up relying on that support for its survival. The U.S. steel industry for instance. So we don't know when this Cash for Clunkers is going to end. Even if the program does finally end, and something else doesn't replace it, there's going to be an imbalance in the used car market for a long while. Used car prices are going to be artificially high for a long time because of government intervention in the market.

it will end when people are not out FLOCKING to the fucking car dealerships to trade in their old cars for new ones. Did you happen to notice that car lots are not fucking ghost towns? That you can cry about the poor picked up used car buyer DESPITE the droves of fucking people benefiting from this? And, be sure, had it been my perogative i'd have only applied it to cars BUILT IN THE USA rather than hemmorage more money to another asian nation. I can imagine your response to an idea like that.

Funny you bring up steal though... you know, given how that is one more industry that has been totally raked accross the coals for the sake of "global free trade".

When will that be? Months? Years? Certainly this program is nice for those that can afford a new car, or are willing to take on the debt whether they can afford it or not. But for those who can't afford a new car, and need a used car, they're hurt by this program. Also, the fact still stands that the imbalance in the used car market will last for a long while after this program is finally ended, considering all the destroyed cars.

Yes, steel effected heavily by "evil" free trade. Despite being protected almost since its inception by the federal government.

Again, you show me your numbers on how many are out walking to work because they can't afford a used car and I'll post how many Americans are taking advantage of a beneficial program. You can't please everyone and it's petty as fuck to nitpick based on the assumption that we can. I PROMISE you: After this gov program people will STILL buy used cars. I swear, cross my heart hope to die.

Indeed, AMERICAN steel HAS been negatively affected by free trade. You wanna draw your evidence while I draw mine?

 

[txlonghorn]

Maybe you missed the article in the very first post of this thread? How could there not be a shortage of used cars with the popularity of the Cash for Clunkers program?

No I didn't miss it.
The story says "may" and "could".
Hypothetical drivel. An asteroid could come crashing to earth and may hit me on the head.

How could there not be a shortage of used cars with the popularity of the Cash for Clunkers program?

There are many many possibilities - not to mention the HUGE inventory dealers have on their lots right now.
Why not wait and see if it really happens before you start complaining about it happening - that's MHO anyway. Complaining about hypotheticals makes you look like someone who is just hell-bent on complaining.

So, based on your opinion of "hypothetical drivel", the words "may" and "could" are baseless?

Perfect! So global warming which "may" or "could" be the cause of whatever environmental trauma we are experiencing at the moment, ( IE temperature fluctuations, unruly storm patterns, etc.) is hypothetical drivel too!! You might want to let Al Gore know. To my best recollection, he's still out there spreading a ton of hypothetical drivel.

Here's the bottom line on C4C...it's a way to distribute BILLIONS of that stimulous package money that's just been sitting there and NOT creating jobs as promised. It's a good draw to boost the sale of cars again in a stagnant market. But, it's showing more promise for the sale of more fuel efficient foreign built cars, which is tragic for domestic vehicle sales. It's going to put many families in dire straits when they have a financial hiccup and can't pay for the new car. I guess there will be some kind of auto bail out kinda like foreclosure protection so that people don't lose their cars too.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

it will end when people are not out FLOCKING to the fucking car dealerships to trade in their old cars for new ones. Did you happen to notice that car lots are not fucking ghost towns? That you can cry about the poor picked up used car buyer DESPITE the droves of fucking people benefiting from this? And, be sure, had it been my perogative i'd have only applied it to cars BUILT IN THE USA rather than hemmorage more money to another asian nation. I can imagine your response to an idea like that.

Funny you bring up steal though... you know, given how that is one more industry that has been totally raked accross the coals for the sake of "global free trade".

When will that be? Months? Years? Certainly this program is nice for those that can afford a new car, or are willing to take on the debt whether they can afford it or not. But for those who can't afford a new car, and need a used car, they're hurt by this program. Also, the fact still stands that the imbalance in the used car market will last for a long while after this program is finally ended, considering all the destroyed cars.

Yes, steel effected heavily by "evil" free trade. Despite being protected almost since its inception by the federal government.

Again, you show me your numbers on how many are out walking to work because they can't afford a used car and I'll post how many Americans are taking advantage of a beneficial program. You can't please everyone and it's petty as fuck to nitpick based on the assumption that we can. I PROMISE you: After this gov program people will STILL buy used cars. I swear, cross my heart hope to die.

Indeed, AMERICAN steel HAS been negatively affected by free trade. You wanna draw your evidence while I draw mine?

Of course people are still going to buy used cars. However, this program is hailed as helping the auto industry and poor people alike. Well the poorest among us still can't afford a new car even with this program, and it doesn't help them that because of the program the prices of used cars are on the rise. It also doesn't help used car lots who are probably seeing a lot less business these days because of the artificial demand for new cars and the rise in the price of their inventory.

If I intended this thread to be about the steel industry I would have made it so that it was about the steel industry.

 

[Shogun]

When will that be? Months? Years? Certainly this program is nice for those that can afford a new car, or are willing to take on the debt whether they can afford it or not. But for those who can't afford a new car, and need a used car, they're hurt by this program. Also, the fact still stands that the imbalance in the used car market will last for a long while after this program is finally ended, considering all the destroyed cars.

Yes, steel effected heavily by "evil" free trade. Despite being protected almost since its inception by the federal government.

Again, you show me your numbers on how many are out walking to work because they can't afford a used car and I'll post how many Americans are taking advantage of a beneficial program. You can't please everyone and it's petty as fuck to nitpick based on the assumption that we can. I PROMISE you: After this gov program people will STILL buy used cars. I swear, cross my heart hope to die.

Indeed, AMERICAN steel HAS been negatively affected by free trade. You wanna draw your evidence while I draw mine?

Of course people are still going to buy used cars. However, this program is hailed as helping the auto industry and poor people alike. Well the poorest among us still can't afford a new car even with this program, and it doesn't help them that because of the program the prices of used cars are on the rise. It also doesn't help used car lots who are probably seeing a lot less business these days because of the artificial demand for new cars and the rise in the price of their inventory.

If I intended this thread to be about the steel industry I would have made it so that it was about the steel industry.

again, if YOU have a number to post reflecting just how many people CANT go buy a fucking used car right now then post it. I'm not really interested in the hypothetical "well, im sure there is someone out there who cant" aspect of your position. Again, we can't please everyone. If the majority can benefit while a scant minority doesn't wake up to fine a fucking bar of gold under their pillow then, hey.. maybe next time.

and, when the fuck did we decide used car lots are the guaging factor in economic stimulus? Used car part junk yards? Do you think either benefits our economy MORE than American auto workers? than lowering the dependance on oil?

I get the impression that jesus himself could ride a chocolate convertable down from on high and we'd STILL have to deal with those who's bitch that his ride puts the taxi industry on its knees.

 

[Shogun]

ps, if you don't want to talk about steel then don't bring it up. it's not your sides' strong subject.

 

[Care4all]

Do you see the cars that are being cashed in! They are gas-guzzlers! Not in high demand much more. The people buying gas guzzlers nowadays are people who can afford them. More than likely those same people are going to buy new cars.

Used cars prices are increasing because demand for used cars (at lower prices than used) are attracting people over more expensive new cars!

No, the government has created an artificial demand for new cars by paying extra to those who trade in their old cars to be destroyed. Perfectly good cars in many cases. This creates a shortage in used cars thus driving their prices up.

so, none of the clunker people buying new, were the people that WOULD HAVE BEEN buying used cars?

I think demand for used cars would go down a little, since an estimated few hundred thousand people out of the 750k, made the clunker trade and bought new who may have bought a used car otherwise....

it'll all work out kevin....the projected used car shortage isn't taking all facts in to consideration imo...

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Again, you show me your numbers on how many are out walking to work because they can't afford a used car and I'll post how many Americans are taking advantage of a beneficial program. You can't please everyone and it's petty as fuck to nitpick based on the assumption that we can. I PROMISE you: After this gov program people will STILL buy used cars. I swear, cross my heart hope to die.

Indeed, AMERICAN steel HAS been negatively affected by free trade. You wanna draw your evidence while I draw mine?

Of course people are still going to buy used cars. However, this program is hailed as helping the auto industry and poor people alike. Well the poorest among us still can't afford a new car even with this program, and it doesn't help them that because of the program the prices of used cars are on the rise. It also doesn't help used car lots who are probably seeing a lot less business these days because of the artificial demand for new cars and the rise in the price of their inventory.

If I intended this thread to be about the steel industry I would have made it so that it was about the steel industry.

again, if YOU have a number to post reflecting just how many people CANT go buy a fucking used car right now then post it. I'm not really interested in the hypothetical "well, im sure there is someone out there who cant" aspect of your position. Again, we can't please everyone. If the majority can benefit while a scant minority doesn't wake up to fine a fucking bar of gold under their pillow then, hey.. maybe next time.

and, when the fuck did we decide used car lots are the guaging factor in economic stimulus? Used car part junk yards? Do you think either benefits our economy MORE than American auto workers? than lowering the dependance on oil?

I get the impression that jesus himself could ride a chocolate convertable down from on high and we'd STILL have to deal with those who's bitch that his ride puts the taxi industry on its knees.

I don't have the numbers. Should we simply not post on the subject, however? Simply praise this wonderful government program and move on? Or is it legitimate to point out that while some are seeing a benefit from this program, that there are others who are negatively impacted by this program?

"Between a good and a bad economist this constitutes the whole difference--the one takes account of the visible effect; the other takes account both of the effects which are seen and also of those which it is necessary to foresee." - Frédéric Bastiat

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

ps, if you don't want to talk about steel then don't bring it up. it's not your sides' strong subject.

I brought steel up in an attempt to point out that once an industry uses the federal government as a crutch it often becomes dependent on the government. What exactly is my side?

 

[nodoginnafight]

Or is it legitimate to point out that while some are seeing a benefit from this program, that there are others who are negatively impacted by this program?

If you had an ounce of evidence to support the claim that some are being negatively impacted that would be one thing.
But you don't.
You're just complaining because you assume that some will be negatively impacted.
SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Do you see the cars that are being cashed in! They are gas-guzzlers! Not in high demand much more. The people buying gas guzzlers nowadays are people who can afford them. More than likely those same people are going to buy new cars.

Used cars prices are increasing because demand for used cars (at lower prices than used) are attracting people over more expensive new cars!

No, the government has created an artificial demand for new cars by paying extra to those who trade in their old cars to be destroyed. Perfectly good cars in many cases. This creates a shortage in used cars thus driving their prices up.

so, none of the clunker people buying new, were the people that WOULD HAVE BEEN buying used cars?

I think demand for used cars would go down a little, since an estimated few hundred thousand people out of the 750k, made the clunker trade and bought new who may have bought a used car otherwise....

it'll all work out kevin....the projected used car shortage isn't taking all facts in to consideration imo...

That's exactly what many of them are. They now have extra incentive to buy a new car, whether they can afford it or not. That's not really a good thing, however. We don't want more people to go into debt if they can't afford it, and just because you can get a loan for a new car doesn't mean you can afford it.

There are still people who can't afford a new car, regardless of Cash for Clunkers. But while the demand may have gone down overall, the prices continue to rise because there is still a significant demand and the supply is getting lower. Also, as I've pointed out, this imbalance is going to outlive the Cash for Clunkers program.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Or is it legitimate to point out that while some are seeing a benefit from this program, that there are others who are negatively impacted by this program?

If you had an ounce of evidence to support the claim that some are being negatively impacted that would be one thing.
But you don't.
You're just complaining because you assume that some will be negatively impacted.
SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!

I've already pointed out that it is people within the automobile industry that are saying the prices of used cars are going up, and basic economics tells us that this is going to happen. If you lower the supply of something then the price rises. Since there are less used cars now on the market the price of used cars is on the rise.

 

[Shogun]

Of course people are still going to buy used cars. However, this program is hailed as helping the auto industry and poor people alike. Well the poorest among us still can't afford a new car even with this program, and it doesn't help them that because of the program the prices of used cars are on the rise. It also doesn't help used car lots who are probably seeing a lot less business these days because of the artificial demand for new cars and the rise in the price of their inventory.

If I intended this thread to be about the steel industry I would have made it so that it was about the steel industry.

again, if YOU have a number to post reflecting just how many people CANT go buy a fucking used car right now then post it. I'm not really interested in the hypothetical "well, im sure there is someone out there who cant" aspect of your position. Again, we can't please everyone. If the majority can benefit while a scant minority doesn't wake up to fine a fucking bar of gold under their pillow then, hey.. maybe next time.

and, when the fuck did we decide used car lots are the guaging factor in economic stimulus? Used car part junk yards? Do you think either benefits our economy MORE than American auto workers? than lowering the dependance on oil?

I get the impression that jesus himself could ride a chocolate convertable down from on high and we'd STILL have to deal with those who's bitch that his ride puts the taxi industry on its knees.

I don't have the numbers. Should we simply not post on the subject, however? Simply praise this wonderful government program and move on? Or is it legitimate to point out that while some are seeing a benefit from this program, that there are others who are negatively impacted by this program?

"Between a good and a bad economist this constitutes the whole difference--the one takes account of the visible effect; the other takes account both of the effects which are seen and also of those which it is necessary to foresee." - Frédéric Bastiat

so.. you dont have anything concrete about this yeti of an issue you are nitpicking, eh? Again, petty. You can post whatever you want.. but, don't be shocked when your pettiness gets called what it is. I know it might rock your fucking world but MAYBE, just MAYBE CFC is working out better for MORE american's than your hands off approach of "well, capitalism has it's ups and downs so lets jest ride this one to hell and hope it gets better someday" crap. I realie that you resent the government when you are not up at bat. boo fucking hoo. When you have numbers that reflect the negative like I have the numbers that reflect the positive let me know.


ps, after your steel industry gaffe I'm not sure i'd rely on silly fucking quotes as if name dropping some theorist (opinion) means something to everyone.

 

[nodoginnafight]

I've already pointed out that it is people within the automobile industry that are saying the prices of used cars are going up, and basic economics tells us that this is going to happen. If you lower the supply of something then the price rises. Since there are less used cars now on the market the price of used cars is on the rise.

In other words you have repeatedly failed to show a single shred of evidence to support your claim.

Show me some evidence - or be relegated to I-hate-Obama-and-I'm gonna-whine-about-EVERYTHING status.

 

[Shogun]

ps, if you don't want to talk about steel then don't bring it up. it's not your sides' strong subject.

I brought steel up in an attempt to point out that once an industry uses the federal government as a crutch it often becomes dependent on the government. What exactly is my side?

and I made it real clear that i'd pull out example after example of the AMERICAN steel industry being crushed under the theoretical bullshit of free market capitalistas. You call it a crutch but those workers are able to afford a standard of living ABOVE that of a fucking mexican dirt pauper or indian beggar. Did you want to tell me that you are not on the free market side of this?

 

[Shogun]

Or is it legitimate to point out that while some are seeing a benefit from this program, that there are others who are negatively impacted by this program?

If you had an ounce of evidence to support the claim that some are being negatively impacted that would be one thing.
But you don't.
You're just complaining because you assume that some will be negatively impacted.
SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!

I've already pointed out that it is people within the automobile industry that are saying the prices of used cars are going up, and basic economics tells us that this is going to happen. If you lower the supply of something then the price rises. Since there are less used cars now on the market the price of used cars is on the rise.

no, you posted about junkyards in OK. One interview from one guy about what he thought was going to be free junk cars doesn't even scratch the surface of how many are out benefitting from CFC right now.



"basic economics tells us blah blah blah" dude.. the pompous "i've read some econ theories" silliness doesn't impress me here any more than it did when Greenspan was groveling AFTER the fact.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

again, if YOU have a number to post reflecting just how many people CANT go buy a fucking used car right now then post it. I'm not really interested in the hypothetical "well, im sure there is someone out there who cant" aspect of your position. Again, we can't please everyone. If the majority can benefit while a scant minority doesn't wake up to fine a fucking bar of gold under their pillow then, hey.. maybe next time.

and, when the fuck did we decide used car lots are the guaging factor in economic stimulus? Used car part junk yards? Do you think either benefits our economy MORE than American auto workers? than lowering the dependance on oil?

I get the impression that jesus himself could ride a chocolate convertable down from on high and we'd STILL have to deal with those who's bitch that his ride puts the taxi industry on its knees.

I don't have the numbers. Should we simply not post on the subject, however? Simply praise this wonderful government program and move on? Or is it legitimate to point out that while some are seeing a benefit from this program, that there are others who are negatively impacted by this program?

"Between a good and a bad economist this constitutes the whole difference--the one takes account of the visible effect; the other takes account both of the effects which are seen and also of those which it is necessary to foresee." - Frédéric Bastiat

so.. you dont have anything concrete about this yeti of an issue you are nitpicking, eh? Again, petty. You can post whatever you want.. but, don't be shocked when your pettiness gets called what it is. I know it might rock your fucking world but MAYBE, just MAYBE CFC is working out better for MORE american's than your hands off approach of "well, capitalism has it's ups and downs so lets jest ride this one to hell and hope it gets better someday" crap. I realie that you resent the government when you are not up at bat. boo fucking hoo. When you have numbers that reflect the negative like I have the numbers that reflect the positive let me know.


ps, after your steel industry gaffe I'm not sure i'd rely on silly fucking quotes as if name dropping some theorist (opinion) means something to everyone.

This program is helping some people, but it's at the expense of other people. In a free market approach only those who have made unwise decisions get hurt.

I didn't make a steel industry gaffe. I made a comparison between a steel industry completely dependent on government protection, and the automobile industry that I see as going down the same road. Maybe Bastiat's quote doesn't mean anything to you, but it's a very prescient observation nonetheless.

 

[nodoginnafight]

This is boring - I'm outta here. Until you can come up with some evidence, you can just pi$$ in the wind all by yourself.

But you know, there are legitimate questions that need to be asked of this administration and serious policy examinations that need to be made. But when folks start dragging up this kind of BS it really hurts that process. People raising REAL and LEGITIMATE concerns get lumped in with these "what if" whiners and don't get the serious answers they deserve.