clouds and water vapor

Discussion in 'Environment' started by Old Rocks, Jun 6, 2010.

  1. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Diamond Member

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    A number of posters have continued to state, with various degrees of smarmy smirkiness, that the 'warmers' never take clouds and water vapor into account. Besides once again demonstrated their incredible ignorance, they sometimes spread doubt among those that have not researched the subject.

    So, here is a chapter from a text on the subject by a leading expert in the field of climatology.


    http://www-ramanathan.ucsd.edu/FCMTheRadiativeForcingDuetoCloudsandWaterVapor.pdf

    5.1 Introduction
    As the previous chapters have noted, the climate system is forced by a number of factors,
    e.g., solar impact, the greenhouse effect, etc. For the greenhouse effect, clouds,
    water vapor, and CO2 are of the utmost importance. The emergence of computers
    as a viable scientific tool in the 1960s in conjunction with the availability of spectroscopic
    data enabled us to treat the numerous complexities of infrared-radiative
    transfer in the atmosphere. While such calculations set the stage for estimating accurately
    (decades later in the 1990s) the radiative forcing due to greenhouse gases
    and clouds, they did not yield the necessary insights into the physics of the problem
    nor did they yield any explanation of the relevant phenomenon. Such insights
    needed physically based analytic approaches to the problem. It is in this arena that
    Dr. Robert Cess excelled and provided the community with important insights into
    numerous radiative processes in the atmosphere of Earth and other planets including
    Mars, Venus, Jupiter, and Saturn. A few examples that are relevant to the main
    theme of this chapter are given below.
     
  2. del
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    del BANNED

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    i thought this thread was going to be about your most recent cranial CAT scan.

    live and learn


    if you can
     
  3. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Diamond Member

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    Can you?
     
  4. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    In their defence, Old Rocks, you really cannot blame them.

    They're stupid.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  5. del
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    del BANNED

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    every day i learn something new. you should try it.
     
  6. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    It's not for the layman. In fact, I'm not sure who the audience is, there is no executive summary so they expect you to read through 30 pages of history and observations and I didn't. I read the first 7 pages, then skimmed through the rest. There are a lot of formulas and charts but there are some very interesting statements in here. Here's the one that caught my eye:

    "Cloud feedback. This is still an unresolved issue (see Chapter 8). The few results we have on the role of cloud feedback in climate change is mostly from GCMs. Their treatment of clouds is so rudimentary that we need an observational basis to check the model conclusions. We do not know how the net forcing of −18 W m−2 will change in response to global warming. Thus, the magnitude as well as the sign of the cloud feedback is uncertain. Cloud radiative forcing effects are concentrated regionally (Figure 5.5). The data reveal three regions of major interest for future study."

    In short, this is another article that Old Rocks didn't bother to read before he posted it because like the meaning of the word "inconceivable" in the movie "The Princess Bribe" I don't think this article means what Old Rocks thinks it means.

    Here are some highlights:

    "..the greenhouse effect is dominated by pressure-broadened vibration–rotational lines (e.g., CO2 and CH4) or pure rotational lines (H2O) of polyatomic gases."

    I liked the above sentence. The "Polyatomic gases" meant we didn't have to deal with the lowbrow mono-atomic gases (N2 and O2) that comprise 98+% of our atmosphere.

    "This study conducted in the early 1990s (Cess et al., 1990) revealed cloud feedback to be the major source of model differences in climate sensitivity and established cloud feedback as a major focus of research."

    Translation: Clouds do matter

    "A few decades later, John Tyndall (1861), using results from his detailed laboratory experiments, deduced that water vapor is the dominant gaseous absorber of infrared radiation."

    John Tyndall, the first Denier

    "However, it was S. Arrhenius (1896) who laid the formal foundation linking atmospheric gases to climate change. His main goal was to estimate the surface temperature increase due to an increase in CO2."

    S. Arrhenius: the first Warmer, the Father of Warmers, Patron Saint of the Warmers

    "Although it is well known that atmospheric circulation plays a big role, a satisfactory answer as to why the relative humidity in the atmosphere is conserved is still elusive."

    But this does not prevent Old Rocks and the Warmers from safely saying with complete assurance that your SUV is melting the polar ice caps.

    Water Vapor warms the planet more than CO2? That's Inconceivable!
     
  7. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Diamond Member

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    Frank, old fool, how many times has the fact that the residency time for H2O is less than ten days, and that of CO2 about two centuries, been explained to you?

    And you are correct. That is not a book for the likes of you. No hollow moon in it.
     
  8. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    Unlike you, I read the article and not just cut and pasted little snippets that seemed to agree with my worldview. The only part that I had no patience for was the formulas. I read the parts that matter, that is, what they understood from their formulas and again, the article basically says, "we're still not sure what's going on with clouds and their impact on the climate"
     
  9. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    Clouds are warming the planet? That's Inconceivable!
     
  10. skookerasbil
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    skookerasbil Gold Member

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    HOLY MOTHER OF GOD................does this guy have issues or what???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
     

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