Class size does not matter

[uscitizen]

Most parents know that as a child begins to speak they begin to ask, "what's that?". The desire to learn about the world around them is inherent to our species (and even our dogs and cats explore their environment and do so for their lifetime).

Why do some children thrive in an environment where learning is all around them, and others do not?

some is the child, but most is a result of the parents/family situation.
Many view school as a babysitter.

 

[bodecea]

It turns out that conservatives were right all along.

Two Harvard researchers looked at the factors that actually improve student achievement and those that don’t. In a new paper for the National Bureau of Economic Research, Will Dobbie and Roland Freyer analyzed 35 charter schools, which generally have greater flexibility in terms of school structure and strategy. They found that traditionally emphasized factors such as class size made little difference, compared with some new criteria:

We find that traditionally collected input measures — class size, per pupil expenditure, the fraction of teachers with no certification, and the fraction of teachers with an advanced degree — are not correlated with school effectiveness. In stark contrast, we show that an index of five policies suggested by over forty years of qualitative research — frequent teacher feedback, the use of data to guide instruction, high-dosage tutoring, increased instructional time, and high expectations — explains approximately 50 percent of the variation in school effectiveness.​

Study: Class size doesn’t matter - The Washington Post

My brother teaches and IHO, the best compliment he can give a parent is that he would take 40-50 in his class if they were as motivated as their child. And then there are the ones that suck the life out of a teacher and a class and having that type of student makes it impossible to do anything but classroom management for most of the classtime. Charter schools can pick and choose their students, right? Seems like the study is a little flawed in that regard.

 

[uscitizen]

It turns out that conservatives were right all along.

Two Harvard researchers looked at the factors that actually improve student achievement and those that don’t. In a new paper for the National Bureau of Economic Research, Will Dobbie and Roland Freyer analyzed 35 charter schools, which generally have greater flexibility in terms of school structure and strategy. They found that traditionally emphasized factors such as class size made little difference, compared with some new criteria:

We find that traditionally collected input measures — class size, per pupil expenditure, the fraction of teachers with no certification, and the fraction of teachers with an advanced degree — are not correlated with school effectiveness. In stark contrast, we show that an index of five policies suggested by over forty years of qualitative research — frequent teacher feedback, the use of data to guide instruction, high-dosage tutoring, increased instructional time, and high expectations — explains approximately 50 percent of the variation in school effectiveness.​

Study: Class size doesn’t matter - The Washington Post

My brother teaches and IHO, the best compliment he can give a parent is that he would take 40-50 in his class if they were as motivated as their child. And then there are the ones that suck the life out of a teacher and a class and having that type of student makes it impossible to do anything but classroom management for most of the classtime. Charter schools can pick and choose their students, right? Seems like the study is a little flawed in that regard.

Bingo!

also parents that go to the trouble of getting their child into a charter school actually care about their childs education.

Again the parents are the most mportant factor in any childs education.

 

[rdean]

It turns out that conservatives were right all along.



Study: Class size doesn’t matter - The Washington Post

This conservative, former first grade teacher, believes that size does matter...most especially in regards to reading, and having the opportunity to offer students of all levels more individualized instruction.

The data from the study contradicts your anecdotal evidence. In fact, the fact that class size is smaller now than it was 50 years ago, and students generally perform poorer on reading tests now than they did then, contradicts it. By the way, data driven instruction and tutoring covers what you are talking about.

You go to school and learn what they taught 50 years ago and see how prepared you are for today.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Most parents know that as a child begins to speak they begin to ask, "what's that?". The desire to learn about the world around them is inherent to our species (and even our dogs and cats explore their environment and do so for their lifetime).

Why do some children thrive in an environment where learning is all around them, and others do not?

Comes down to who's answering the "What's That?" question. If you tell a 3 year old to shut up every time they ask what's that, I guarantee that kid isn't going to make it in this world. Parents are the key, as they spend the most crucial time of a child's development in contact with them. Parents are always the key.

It comes down to causes and the parent who does as you suggest is one cause. Another is a school environment where the child is told to sit down, don't touch and to raise their hand before asking "What's that?"

And, btw, who teaches parents how to be parents?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Most parents know that as a child begins to speak they begin to ask, "what's that?". The desire to learn about the world around them is inherent to our species (and even our dogs and cats explore their environment and do so for their lifetime).

Why do some children thrive in an environment where learning is all around them, and others do not?

Comes down to who's answering the "What's That?" question. If you tell a 3 year old to shut up every time they ask what's that, I guarantee that kid isn't going to make it in this world. Parents are the key, as they spend the most crucial time of a child's development in contact with them. Parents are always the key.

It comes down to causes and the parent who does as you suggest is one cause. Another is a school environment where the child is told to sit down, don't touch and to raise their hand before asking "What's that?"

And, btw, who teaches parents how to be parents?

Grandparents. By example. So in one of the most tragic examples of why we as a species probably won't survive, bad habits are passed down generation to generation.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Charter schools can pick and choose their students, right? Seems like the study is a little flawed in that regard.

That's why any comparison between a public school's record versus a charter school/religious school/private school' record is always flawed. Until private schools are forced to take on any student who applies, which they would have to should public schools be abolished, it's impossible to compare them.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Class size does matter in primary education. Not as much in college and secondary education though.

Teachers in primary education need electric cattle prods to maintain order in the classroom.

Behavior in class is a separate issue. I would argue that spanking kids would do more to fix that than anything else, but many would accuse me of child abuse.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It turns out that conservatives were right all along.

Two Harvard researchers looked at the factors that actually improve student achievement and those that don’t. In a new paper for the National Bureau of Economic Research, Will Dobbie and Roland Freyer analyzed 35 charter schools, which generally have greater flexibility in terms of school structure and strategy. They found that traditionally emphasized factors such as class size made little difference, compared with some new criteria:

We find that traditionally collected input measures — class size, per pupil expenditure, the fraction of teachers with no certification, and the fraction of teachers with an advanced degree — are not correlated with school effectiveness. In stark contrast, we show that an index of five policies suggested by over forty years of qualitative research — frequent teacher feedback, the use of data to guide instruction, high-dosage tutoring, increased instructional time, and high expectations — explains approximately 50 percent of the variation in school effectiveness.​

Study: Class size doesn’t matter - The Washington Post

My brother teaches and IHO, the best compliment he can give a parent is that he would take 40-50 in his class if they were as motivated as their child. And then there are the ones that suck the life out of a teacher and a class and having that type of student makes it impossible to do anything but classroom management for most of the classtime. Charter schools can pick and choose their students, right? Seems like the study is a little flawed in that regard.

The study is flawed because it ignored the fact that public schools, even with small class sizes, end up spending more time managing students than teaching? I could see an argument to support that, but I could easily turn that around and argue against forcing kids that are disruptive to be in school in the first place.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This conservative, former first grade teacher, believes that size does matter...most especially in regards to reading, and having the opportunity to offer students of all levels more individualized instruction.

The data from the study contradicts your anecdotal evidence. In fact, the fact that class size is smaller now than it was 50 years ago, and students generally perform poorer on reading tests now than they did then, contradicts it. By the way, data driven instruction and tutoring covers what you are talking about.

You go to school and learn what they taught 50 years ago and see how prepared you are for today.

I did. My reading comprehension tests at post graduate level, I can do calculus and differentials without a calculator, I know how to fix most electronic devices, can do basic repairs on a car, and I am more than capable of debating my position. I can do all of that even though I did not graduate class valedictorian. I am willing to bet that I am better prepared to meet the world than the average student today who can barely read at 8th grade level.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Charter schools can pick and choose their students, right? Seems like the study is a little flawed in that regard.

That's why any comparison between a public school's record versus a charter school/religious school/private school' record is always flawed. Until private schools are forced to take on any student who applies, which they would have to should public schools be abolished, it's impossible to compare them.

I still view that as more of an indictment of forcing schools to take all applicants than it is of charter and private schools.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Class size does matter in primary education. Not as much in college and secondary education though.

Teachers in primary education need electric cattle prods to maintain order in the classroom.

Behavior in class is a separate issue. I would argue that spanking kids would do more to fix that than anything else, but many would accuse me of child abuse.

Part of any education, or upbringing, that helps a child become a decent adult involves teaching the child to set standards and to stand by them. Discipline plays a part in teaching a child those values. You know, actions have consequences, bad actions have unpleasant consequences. Or good behavior reaps pleasant rewards. Seems like that particular schism has been totally inverted in today's society.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Charter schools can pick and choose their students, right? Seems like the study is a little flawed in that regard.

That's why any comparison between a public school's record versus a charter school/religious school/private school' record is always flawed. Until private schools are forced to take on any student who applies, which they would have to should public schools be abolished, it's impossible to compare them.

I still view that as more of an indictment of forcing schools to take all applicants than it is of charter and private schools.

True. I was in public school, where I got a very good education, as the transition was bring made from the mindset where a student eho was to disruptive could be expelled to the current mindset where expulsuon is some kind of civil rights issue. It's a changed world.

 

[blimpo]

The data from the study contradicts your anecdotal evidence. In fact, the fact that class size is smaller now than it was 50 years ago, and students generally perform poorer on reading tests now than they did then, contradicts it. By the way, data driven instruction and tutoring covers what you are talking about.

Eh, there's enough studies out there to support any and all opinions. It's common sense though if you have to teach students to literally read, you'll experience a higher degree of success in a class of 15 versus 30.

I wouldn't know, I taught myself to read because the class was too slow. Taking a wild guess though, I would say you would do even better one on one than one on fifteen. That is obviously impossible, so the best thing to do is drop the union backed requirement for degrees and accreditation and put more people in a class rather than reducing the size of the classes.

Yeah, let's just grab any jack-leg off the street and throw them into a class teaching anything. That's what is coming because the pay will drop with the requirements...

What is happening is teaching is no longer to be considered a career. Quality people aren't going to put up with the constant bashing and the insecurity, while being in the vulnerable position of assigning grades and handing out discipline.

 

[coleenbeauty]

Class size do really matters.. The smaller the size of the class, the higher the chance for the students to be taught well.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Class size do really matters.. The smaller the size of the class, the higher the chance for the students to be taught well.

The smaller the class size, the more teachers that are needed. The more teachers there are, the greater the chance that the teacher a kid get sucks.

 

[Artevelde]

Class size do really matters.. The smaller the size of the class, the higher the chance for the students to be taught well.

Not necessarily.

 

[Artevelde]

Class size do really matters.. The smaller the size of the class, the higher the chance for the students to be taught well.

The smaller the class size, the more teachers that are needed. The more teachers there are, the greater the chance that the teacher a kid get sucks.

Oh my God! Somebody is using logic!

 

[editec]

Class size doesn't matter?



My god! ~ the right wing nonsense people will buy into just keep from recognzing even the most basic reality into is simply astounding.

If you think a teacher with 30 kids is going to be able to teach her pupils as well as a teacher with 15 kids you must on something.

 

[Artevelde]

Class size doesn't matter?



My god! ~ the right wing nonsense people will buy into just keep from recognzing even the most basic reality into is simply astounding.

If you think a teacher with 30 kids is going to be able to teach her pupils as well as a teacher with 15 kids you must on something.

It's always easier to look for simplified solutions. 50 years ago children left school knowing how to read and write.