Civl War has begun in Iraq

[Mr. Shaman]

Iran will step in and settle things.

The minute we "invaded" Iran stepped in and settled things.
Iran is majority Shia from Persian descent. Hussein and the Baths were Sunni Arabs and pretty much secular.
Never should have gone there in the first place. Bush had no clue as to the cultural and religous differences there.

.....More-than-likely, because he was drunk, back when.....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY]Cheney in 1994 on Iraq - YouTube[/ame]

.....UNTIL, of course, INCOME-POTENTIAL reared-its-head.....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chXjCtkymRQ]US Troops in Iraq talk about Halliburton & KBR - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[Jarhead]

Why are/were you against the Iraq invasion?

They were not an imminent threat to our mainland...and we had bigger fish to fry at the time...Al Quaeda.

I belive Bush and Congress dropped the ball on that one.

But it doesnt mean they did not have a justifiable reason to attack.

So after all that you have the same reason for being against it as I do.

lol

You're a trip.

I think we can both agree that justification is a subjective animal as is what the level of military action should be taken once the decision to attack is made.

You see....I dont think you get me and what I do on this board.
I do not come on here knowing I am right. I am well aware that many of my thoughts and beliefs are ideologically driven. Some are driven by experience...and those I hold true to.

For example..there was a time in my life where I waspenniless and homeless. I lived under theboardwalk in Long Beach Long Island for several weeks of the summer. I blamed everyone for my situation but myself.

I woke up. Realized only one person can do good my me..and that was me. I got a second job at a grocery store bagging groceries at night. Sat down and developed a business pland to start my own business with little to no capital. 5 years later I sold it. Never looked back. SO I believe STRONGLY in personal responsibility and NEVER playing the victim...and I will argue that tooth and nail.

But for other things such as what we are discussing now? I know what IO feel deep down, I know what is ideologically driven and I know that I dont know enough to be right in what I feel.

But I also refuse to make a decision based on what I THINK someone else was thinking...such as Bush.

 

[paulitician]

What would the current administration's upside be in starting a war with Iran? That sounds like something Paul needs to fight his own party over.

Doesn't really matter what the current Administrations's upside would be. That's irrelevant. It's all about the Military Industrial Complex. And they see lots & lots of upsides in War with Iran. So don't be surprised when you see one of those 'incidents' that leads to War with Iran. This Iraq Civil war could be perfect cover for the Military Industrial Complex. They're salivating over the possibilities. So stay tuned.

If we had a Republican administration, I'd say , "yeah, you're right". I don't see that happening with this administration. Good a reason as any to vote Democratic this November.

No offense,but you're very naive. I'll chalk that up to you just being young. Don't be surprised if it's your beloved Democrats who start that War with Iran. Brace yourself because that very well could happen. It only takes that one 'incident.' Democrat/Republican doesn't matter. The Military Industrial Complex runs the show on these things.

 

[Jarhead]

According to inspectors, they weren't refused access anywhere. The only reason they didn't complete the mission is because Bush told them to leave. I didn't forget that Saddam kicked out the inspectors previously. It just didn't seem to have any relevance to the current topic. Bush touted an "immediate threat", but refused to let inspectors determine the truth of that claim.

And according to other inspectors, trhey WERE refused access.

Monday morning quarterbacking results in finding those that say things that are ideologically driven.

WHo is telling the truth?

Not sure. Irrelevant now.

But we are Americans. We learn from mistakes

Were WMDs found in those places where they were refused access? Even if they were moved, evidence of stockpiles of the sizes estimated would have been hard to cover-up.

No..they werent found there. But we were not allowed to look there until we invaded.

You are once again playing monday morning quarterback.

 

[konradv]

Doesn't really matter what the current Administrations's upside would be. That's irrelevant. It's all about the Military Industrial Complex. And they see lots & lots of upsides in War with Iran. So don't be surprised when you see one of those 'incidents' that leads to War with Iran. This Iraq Civil war could be perfect cover for the Military Industrial Complex. They're salivating over the possibilities. So stay tuned.

If we had a Republican administration, I'd say , "yeah, you're right". I don't see that happening with this administration. Good a reason as any to vote Democratic this November.

No offense,but you're very naive. I'll chalk that up to you just being young. Don't be surprised if it's your beloved Democrats who start that War with Iran. Brace yourself because that very well could happen. It only takes that one 'incident.' Democrat/Republican doesn't matter. The Military Industrial Complex runs the show on these things.

No I'm saying that because I'm old and remember that Dems have the "Gulf of Tonkin Incident" to remind them not to go off half-cocked.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Sadam would still be presenting a problerm for Iran to deal with.

Strange....we supported him in the 80's and at the same time Reagan was sending missles to Iran. What goddam business have we ever had over there except big oil Until Bush's daddy became a target for Saddam in 1993 this country figured they could put him down any time they wanted or needed to. Then we actually tried it after god told Bush to invade.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Civl War has begun in Iraq

Religion is the cause.

So, right back to doing what muslim arabs do best... kill each other and others. What a shocker.

....Just like.....

.....God intended!!!

 

[Mr. Shaman]

If we had a Republican administration, I'd say , "yeah, you're right". I don't see that happening with this administration. Good a reason as any to vote Democratic this November.

No offense,but you're very naive. I'll chalk that up to you just being young. Don't be surprised if it's your beloved Democrats who start that War with Iran. Brace yourself because that very well could happen. It only takes that one 'incident.' Democrat/Republican doesn't matter. The Military Industrial Complex runs the show on these things.

No I'm saying that because I'm old and remember that Dems have the "Gulf of Tonkin Incident" to remind them not to go off half-cocked.

When it came to FUCKING-OVER THE VIETNAMESE.....Harry Truman deserves (at least)....

....an honorable-mention.

*

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT90Qu55O4U]Viet Nam A Television History 1, The Roots of War 2 - YouTube[/ame]
*
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erf52WGnM4g]Viet Nam A Television History 1, The Roots of War 3 - YouTube[/ame]
*
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdMhaypD5wU]Viet Nam A Television History 1, The Roots of War 4 - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[rdean]

Religion is the cause.

I just read a STORY OF A COORDINATED EFFORT that resulted in the deaths of 57.

Sad, yet that is our nature.

OUR nature?

Not mine.

Yours maybe.

The US never should have gone into Iraq. You could see this coming from 12,000 miles away. Better the US leave and they get this over with now. We could have stayed there until the cost bankrupted us entirely and it still wouldn't have been enough. This is what historians tried and failed to warn Bush and the Republicans about but it's funny how the arrogant ignorant seem to think that "ignorance is knowledge".

 

[Mr. Shaman]

And according to other inspectors, trhey WERE refused access.

Monday morning quarterbacking results in finding those that say things that are ideologically driven.

WHo is telling the truth?

Not sure. Irrelevant now.

But we are Americans. We learn from mistakes

Were WMDs found in those places where they were refused access? Even if they were moved, evidence of stockpiles of the sizes estimated would have been hard to cover-up.

No..they werent found there. But we were not allowed to look there until we invaded.

Bullshit!!!!!!!​

"If no one were watching, Iraq could do this. But just as with the nuclear weapons programme, they'd have to start from scratch, having been deprived of all equipment, facilities and research. They'd have to procure the complicated tools and technology required through front companies. This would be detected. The manufacture of chemical weapons emits vented gases that would have been detected by now if they existed. We've been watching, via satellite and other means, and have seen none of this. If Iraq was producing weapons today, we'd have definitive proof, plain and simple."

The Big (Republican) Lie​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Religion is the cause.

I just read a STORY OF A COORDINATED EFFORT that resulted in the deaths of 57.

Sad, yet that is our nature.

OUR nature?

Not mine.

Yours maybe.

The US never should have gone into Iraq. You could see this coming from 12,000 miles away. Better the US leave and they get this over with now. We could have stayed there until the cost bankrupted us entirely and it still wouldn't have been enough. This is what historians tried and failed to warn Bush and the Republicans about but it's funny how the arrogant ignorant seem to think that "ignorance is knowledge".

Gee.....ya' (almost) wonder where they get such ideas.

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Americans should prepare themselves for much more War. It is coming.​

 

[paulitician]

Do people really believe the Military Industrial Complex isn't going to take advantage of this Iraq Civil War somehow? I sure hope they don't think that because they're gonna be in for a pretty huge shock when we do intervene in this Civil War and start a War with Iran. It's being laid out perfectly by the Military Industrial Complex. So stay tuned.

 

[Article 15]

Do people really believe the Military Industrial Complex isn't going to take advantage of this Iraq Civil War somehow? I sure hope they don't think that because they're gonna be in for a pretty huge shock when we do intervene in this Civil War and start a War with Iran. It's being laid out perfectly by the Military Industrial Complex. So stay tuned.

Anybody got a penny? He's skipping again.

 

[kiwiman127]

Isn't the name of this thread "Civil War has begun in Iraq" ?

So,,getting back to the thread's subject,,,,,!

George HW Bush said after Desert Storm; "Of course I feel a frustration and a sense of grief for the innocents, that are being killed brutally, but we are not there to intervene. That is not our purpose. It never was our purpose. I do not want to see us get sucked into the internal civil war inside Iraq."

In other words, back in 1991 our leaders and intelligence knew that there were great odds of a civil war between the Shia and Sunni. It seems no one paid attention to that fact in 2002 as the US built it's case for invading Iraq. Also, one of the fears in 1991 was during/after a civil war, either Syria or Iran would fill the power void in Iraq as Iraq could very well break up into separate sections of Sunni and Shia.

Now let's fast-forward to today. Violence between the Shia and Sunni has escalated. Maliki is suppressing the Sunni within Iraq's own government. There's an arrest warrant for Tariq al-Hashemi, Iraq's Sunni Vice President for terrorism. Maliki rejected a proposal by Hashemi to have officials of the Arab League monitor any investigations conducted on him.
Rift in Iraq: Maliki Demands Kurds Hand Over Hashemi - International Business Times

And Maliki refused both GWB's and Obama's initiatives to keep US troops in Iraq to appease Iran.
‘Iran Foiled US Plan To Dominate ME’
http://shiapost.com/?p=9870

So it appears that the intelligence from 1991 was correct.

Like it or not, keeping Iraq under sanctions was the best policy. Yes, it left Saddam in power but having Saddam in power prevented Iran from having influence in Iraq. Iran's nuclear program accelerated while the US was focused on Iraq. The US admitted that we had limited intelligence on the ground in Iran, our intelligence was for the most part focused on Iraq.

Now we have a civil war brewing in Iraq and Iran has influence within Iraq. When Maliki was in exile during Saddam's reign, Maliki lived in Syria and Iran. Looking at the puzzle, why did the US government ever trust Maliki?

 

[paulitician]

Are you ready for the BIG BANG?? This question is for both Iranians and Americans. Because the cold winds of War are a blowin again.

 

[edthecynic]

Clinton's intel said there were WMD's.

4 years later the intel still said the same thing.
Another 2 weeks would have made a difference?

Start applying logic....but you will need to check your ideology at the door first. It clouds your thinking.

Oh Bushshit!

By 1999 the GOP were attacking Clinton accusing him of exaggerating the Iraq danger for his "Wag The Dog" deflection.

"Iraq does not represent any threat to the United States at this time. Their weapons programs have been exaggerated by the Clinton Administration."
- Tom Delay, 1999

Clinton eventually admitted there were no WMDs in Iraq the next year.

"We are now convinced Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction or active programs."
- President Bill Clinton, August 9th, 2000

When Bush II came into office the CIA admitted that there was no evidence of WMDs in Iraq.

"We do not have any direct evidence that Iraq has used the period since Desert Fox to reconstitute its WMD programs"
-George Tenet, 2/07/2001

Before 9/11 the Bush administration repeatedly said there were no WMDs.

"We believe the sanctions have been effective, and Saddam Hussein's regime has no weapons of mass destruction."
-Condoleeza Rice, February 16th, 2001

"Containment has been achieved, and we now believe Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction or the capability of producing them."
- Colin Powell, February 23rd, 2001

Only after 9/11 did Bush and Cheney manufacture the "bad intel" that said Saddam had WMDs.

 

[Douger]

It must make you feel so knowledgable to be a monday morning quarterback.

So lets say he got the "updated" intel 2 weeks laer and it still said the same thing.

And he invaded.

And there were none.

Then you would say "he could have waited ANOTHER 2 weeks for the NEW updated intel."

Clinton's intel said there were WMD's.

4 years later the intel still said the same thing.

Another 2 weeks would have made a difference?

Start applying logic....but you will need to check your ideology at the door first. It clouds your thinking.

I wasn't talking time; I was talking inspectors. However long it took them to finish their job would have been the proper time. The notion that there was some reason they couldn't do that, implied intel Bush obviously didn't have.

When I suspected my son was smoking pot when he was younger.....

I approached him with it. He denied it. I asked if I can check his room and pockets. He allowed me. I found nothing.

A week later, I suspected it again based on my finding him using visine when I saw him walking in the house at midnight.

SO I again asked him if I could check his room and pockets.

He allowed me to check the clothes in the laundry....but got very defensive when I asked to check his nightable draws.

As his father, he had no choice and I found rolling papers.

I knew I would find something as soon as he made it difficult for me to look.

It is not rocket science.

Was his weed any good ?

 

[GHook93]

Sadam would still be presenting a problerm for Iran to deal with.

Strange....we supported him in the 80's and at the same time Reagan was sending missles to Iran. What goddam business have we ever had over there except big oil Until Bush's daddy became a target for Saddam in 1993 this country figured they could put him down any time they wanted or needed to. Then we actually tried it after god told Bush to invade.

Bottomline: Iraq I and Iraq II were bad wars for America!
Iraq I was supposedly about saving Kuwait, however, that hasn't turned out well for us. First, Kuwait is a hotbed for antiamericanism and Islamic extremist. Second, they have a ton of oil, yet they don't sell any to America! Third, as bad as Sadam was, he was the best leader of Iraq we could hope for. He created a polarizing force to Iran and he didn't allow Turkey to invade his country. We should never have gotten involve in Desert Storm, ESP not to save the ungrateful Kuwaitis.

But other wars for the Muslims were ill-advised.
The Fictious Country of Kosovo: Albanians Muslims were illegally invading the territory for decades. Kosovo was the heart of Serbia. Yet these Muslim invaders from Albania were ethnically cleansing the area of Christian Serbians. We stopped Serbia from taking back their homeland. What we got for this: A country led in a mafesto type style, an Islamic hotbed and antiamerican extremist state! Great job Clinton!

Lebanon: What the fuck were we thinking there! We stopped the Christians from winning. What we should have done was. Put an embargo on the area and naval blockade (ceasing all ships with arms going to the area), but secretly arm the Christians to the teeth. Threaten Syria if they intervene. Once Syria intervened would should have bombed the shit out of the country. No, what we did was stop the Christians from winning, allowed Syria to make sure the Christians wouldn't win. What is the aftermath: An antiamerican terrorist country backed by Iran. A Christian majority ethnically cleansed to 18% at most of the country.

Soviet-Afghani War: Let to Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

 

[Gadawg73]

Religion is the cause.

Power is the motive3.

Religion is the excuse.

I totally agree in this case and in most all other cases.
But those seeking power do not strap bombs on and kill themselves.
They do it for religous beliefs.
They are using religon over there to recruit and they have an endless line of religous zombies ready.
Something our Founders anticipated and wrote the Constitution accordingly.
Smart fellows they were. Religion in government is always tyranny.