Civil Discourse

[JakeStarkey]

Darkwind gives no good reason for following what he learned in first grade.

And, 'wind, you only look silly with those capitalizations.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

I try to keep these nice and easy, friendly, polite, and funny. Despite all this, I have got complaints about my attitude I tried to resolve through PM. I didn't get a useful response, so I don't really know what that person's issue is. But I think light and funny are the way to go.
Sometimes the best response is no response. Some people are just too far beyond the pale to interact with.
I don't do obscenity. It doesn't make me sound any smarter.
I rarely do grammar nazi, mostly because I live in a glass house there. But some folks are so far beyond incoherence that something needs to be said. Nicely, and without too much snark.
Reposting the same stupid over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over gets tiresome real fast, so once I am done with something, I leave it alone.
I really am trying to convince people of my ideas, so I think being courteous and good mannered and polite and direct and honest have the best chances of achieving my goal.

 

[Ringel05]

Sorry, I see no real value in verbal abuse. You may not have felt insulted or abused but I know people who were. Abusers, hazers etc. often are incapable of understanding the effect they have on their victims.

Anguille, I have no doubt you know people who felt they were abussed, and in the Military there is no place for that. Let me try to explain to you a few things, first the business of the Military is War it is not to provide a college education, or free travel, or long term money. Those are all benefits that one gets for having to face the hardships of being in the Military. War is a very nasty, brutal business, and as such the people that fight it need to be ready to work together as a unit, or the hazing and verbal abuse you speak of will be minor compared to the number of people who will die as a result of making a Military that is socially normed. While there is no place in the Military to just select an individual to haze, or verbally abuse for the sake of doing so, to motivate an individual so that they learn that are NOT an individual and part of a unit as part of a well regulated training program harsh language does have it's place. As I said before, War is not a pretty business, and is not subject to rules, and when you are in one you lives depend on it, you cannot afford to worry about how " nice" you are to an individual if the choice is bring that person home alive. For your friends that have been hazed or made to feel as if they were abused then all I can say is again there is no place for abuse and I doubt you will find many in the Military insude or out that would qualify a DI as being abusive when they are using a very tried and ture technique to save your life and that of others.

I think we would have a more effective military if we dropped the cult indoctrination tactics. I have a higher opinion of the mental capacities of our soldiers and people in general. Behavioral science has taught us that nowadays we have better methods than humiliation and denigration for motivating people.

"As I said before, War is not a pretty business, and is not subject to rules, and when you are in one you lives depend on it, you cannot afford to worry about how " nice" you are"

Actually war does have rules. Even before the Geneva Convention wars have mostly been fought according to certain agreements. "Nice" or not being "nice" has nothing to do with it. It has to do with being effective and ethical at the same time. Good teamwork relies on trust, not bullying.

As more and more women rise in the ranks in the military and in diplomatic circles, I think we will see less need for combat and the macho culture that promotes it.

No doubt about it, you do live in some pollyannish, fantasy world with absolutely no grasp of reality. Thankfully you have absolutely nothing to do with military policy, the thought that it could even remotely be possible scares the hell out of me. There are enough like minded mental midgets that want to use the military for social experimentation without destroying the best trained military on the planet by implementing the pusillanimous BS like you have in mind.

 

[Anguille]

Anguille, I have no doubt you know people who felt they were abussed, and in the Military there is no place for that. Let me try to explain to you a few things, first the business of the Military is War it is not to provide a college education, or free travel, or long term money. Those are all benefits that one gets for having to face the hardships of being in the Military. War is a very nasty, brutal business, and as such the people that fight it need to be ready to work together as a unit, or the hazing and verbal abuse you speak of will be minor compared to the number of people who will die as a result of making a Military that is socially normed. While there is no place in the Military to just select an individual to haze, or verbally abuse for the sake of doing so, to motivate an individual so that they learn that are NOT an individual and part of a unit as part of a well regulated training program harsh language does have it's place. As I said before, War is not a pretty business, and is not subject to rules, and when you are in one you lives depend on it, you cannot afford to worry about how " nice" you are to an individual if the choice is bring that person home alive. For your friends that have been hazed or made to feel as if they were abused then all I can say is again there is no place for abuse and I doubt you will find many in the Military insude or out that would qualify a DI as being abusive when they are using a very tried and ture technique to save your life and that of others.

I think we would have a more effective military if we dropped the cult indoctrination tactics. I have a higher opinion of the mental capacities of our soldiers and people in general. Behavioral science has taught us that nowadays we have better methods than humiliation and denigration for motivating people.

"As I said before, War is not a pretty business, and is not subject to rules, and when you are in one you lives depend on it, you cannot afford to worry about how " nice" you are"

Actually war does have rules. Even before the Geneva Convention wars have mostly been fought according to certain agreements. "Nice" or not being "nice" has nothing to do with it. It has to do with being effective and ethical at the same time. Good teamwork relies on trust, not bullying.

As more and more women rise in the ranks in the military and in diplomatic circles, I think we will see less need for combat and the macho culture that promotes it.

No doubt about it, you do live in some pollyannish, fantasy world with absolutely no grasp of reality. Thankfully you have absolutely nothing to do with military policy, the thought that it could even remotely be possible scares the hell out of me. There are enough like minded mental midgets that want to use the military for social experimentation without destroying the best trained military on the planet by implementing the pusillanimous BS like you have in mind.

Sorry to disappoint you but I actually do.

 

[Ringel05]

I think we would have a more effective military if we dropped the cult indoctrination tactics. I have a higher opinion of the mental capacities of our soldiers and people in general. Behavioral science has taught us that nowadays we have better methods than humiliation and denigration for motivating people.

"As I said before, War is not a pretty business, and is not subject to rules, and when you are in one you lives depend on it, you cannot afford to worry about how " nice" you are"

Actually war does have rules. Even before the Geneva Convention wars have mostly been fought according to certain agreements. "Nice" or not being "nice" has nothing to do with it. It has to do with being effective and ethical at the same time. Good teamwork relies on trust, not bullying.

As more and more women rise in the ranks in the military and in diplomatic circles, I think we will see less need for combat and the macho culture that promotes it.

No doubt about it, you do live in some pollyannish, fantasy world with absolutely no grasp of reality. Thankfully you have absolutely nothing to do with military policy, the thought that it could even remotely be possible scares the hell out of me. There are enough like minded mental midgets that want to use the military for social experimentation without destroying the best trained military on the planet by implementing the pusillanimous BS like you have in mind.

Sorry to disappoint you but I actually do.

That's is sick and scary. It's always the "do gooders" (or, we know what's best for you types) that create the most harm because they have the least grasp of real world necessity and application in the arena they propose to change.

 

[Dr Grump]

No doubt about it, you do live in some pollyannish, fantasy world with absolutely no grasp of reality. Thankfully you have absolutely nothing to do with military policy, the thought that it could even remotely be possible scares the hell out of me. There are enough like minded mental midgets that want to use the military for social experimentation without destroying the best trained military on the planet by implementing the pusillanimous BS like you have in mind.

There are already women in the military, and I think it can be an insidious institution..

...as for being best trained...that is subjective. Best equipped? Sure...best trained? The Israeli's, Brits, Ockers and NZers would disagree, as well as the South Africans during apartheid....

 

[Ringel05]

No doubt about it, you do live in some pollyannish, fantasy world with absolutely no grasp of reality. Thankfully you have absolutely nothing to do with military policy, the thought that it could even remotely be possible scares the hell out of me. There are enough like minded mental midgets that want to use the military for social experimentation without destroying the best trained military on the planet by implementing the pusillanimous BS like you have in mind.

There are already women in the military, and I think it can be an insidious institution..

...as for being best trained...that is subjective. Best equipped? Sure...best trained? The Israeli's, Brits, Ockers and NZers would disagree, as well as the South Africans during apartheid....

(in bold)
Of course they would disagree.

 

[Dr Grump]

Which is why it is subjective...:O)

The military is full of gung-ho wannabes IMO. There are some very good men and women there, but there are those who are in there for the wrong reasons IMO.

In the US, members of the military seem to be put on a pedestal in almost a hero-worship environment. Of late (the past 40 years), Americas prowess at making/being involved in war, is almost something to be proud of....

...from the outside looking in....

 

[Anguille]

 

[JakeStarkey]

I trained with all of them except the Israelis. All were good, but you have left out the Canadian Princess Pat's Light infantry. OMG(osh), they were awesome. And they were funny. I remember this joint exercise in the middle of nowhere Alaska (we were hosting) and they put on this skit in shorts and combat boots outside in minus 20. We got to them the next day jumping: they standing all prim and proper, while we were pulling on the jump cable and screaming like stoned Indians, then piling out on a mass exit. What a hoot!

 

[Annie]

I'd echo, EZ. LOL! Truth is I'm quite likely to 'go off' now and again. However, it always leads to a dead end. I've much more luck in winning a debate when remaining civil.

 

[Ringel05]

Which is why it is subjective...:O)

The military is full of gung-ho wannabes IMO. There are some very good men and women there, but there are those who are in there for the wrong reasons IMO.

In the US, members of the military seem to be put on a pedestal in almost a hero-worship environment. Of late (the past 40 years), Americas prowess at making/being involved in war, is almost something to be proud of....

...from the outside looking in....

I only partially agree with you with your first statement (gung-ho). Your second statement is indeed subjective.
I've been aware since I became aware as a child that women were in the military and more recently in combat roles. That was the primary reason for this: , did't know what it had to do with my response to A.

 

[Dr Grump]

Which is why it is subjective...:O)

The military is full of gung-ho wannabes IMO. There are some very good men and women there, but there are those who are in there for the wrong reasons IMO.

In the US, members of the military seem to be put on a pedestal in almost a hero-worship environment. Of late (the past 40 years), Americas prowess at making/being involved in war, is almost something to be proud of....

...from the outside looking in....

I only partially agree with you with your first statement (gung-ho). Your second statement is indeed subjective.
I've been aware since I became aware as a child that women were in the military and more recently in combat roles. That was the primary reason for this: , did't know what it had to do with my response to A.

Well, the women thing I did because I perceived it that way....my bad...

 

[Samson]

I See Dead Brains.

 

[Xenophon]

Stop looking in the mirror.

 

[Samson]

Stop looking in the mirror.

I wondered who'd be first to pick the low hanging fruit.

 

[Navy1960]

Our Military is a professional Military and as such it has men and women doing very honorable and very difficult work in the defense of this nation. Today, there are women that are flying everything from Apache Longbows, to F/A-18's, to KC-135's, as well as honorable commanding units throughout the Military. While some may think that by making the Military a reflection in of society in terms of social norming is a good thing it does not work in the Military infrastructure and breaksdown the chain of command that the Military structure works on. In fact I would submit that the Military is perhaps one of the best examples of how well people can work together, and is in many aspects as gender friendly as you can get. In my time, I never had the privledge to command a female aviator nor actually fly with one, and can tell you from my perspective it would not have mattered as long as she was able to do the job. This attitude you will find is very common in the Military and is less so in the civilian world. However, to make the Military "sensitive" to the individual would deal a death blow to unit structure and as little place in Military training. That said. it is not advocating sadistic training methods, but iis advocating methods by which the Military can bring out the best in an individual as well as impart in them a sense of pride for thier unit and sense of self sacrifice, it also looks to seperate those that do not have this ability and will cost lives in combat, because regardless of how much many would like to paint a nice face on it, the business of the Military is War. I mentioed as well War has not no rules, now while many may think , yes it does, we have ROE's and the Geneva convention, but try telling that to the A-6 driver who just had an SA-2 shot at him , or the Marine who is pinned down by AK-47 fire.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Our Military is a professional Military and as such it has men and women doing very honorable and very difficult work in the defense of this nation. Today, there are women that are flying everything from Apache Longbows, to F/A-18's, to KC-135's, as well as honorable commanding units throughout the Military. While some may think that by making the Military a reflection in of society in terms of social norming is a good thing it does not work in the Military infrastructure and breaksdown the chain of command that the Military structure works on. In fact I would submit that the Military is perhaps one of the best examples of how well people can work together, and is in many aspects as gender friendly as you can get. In my time, I never had the privledge to command a female aviator nor actually fly with one, and can tell you from my perspective it would not have mattered as long as she was able to do the job. This attitude you will find is very common in the Military and is less so in the civilian world. However, to make the Military "sensitive" to the individual would deal a death blow to unit structure and as little place in Military training. That said. it is not advocating sadistic training methods, but iis advocating methods by which the Military can bring out the best in an individual as well as impart in them a sense of pride for thier unit and sense of self sacrifice, it also looks to seperate those that do not have this ability and will cost lives in combat, because regardless of how much many would like to paint a nice face on it, the business of the Military is War. I mentioed as well War has not no rules, now while many may think , yes it does, we have ROE's and the Geneva convention, but try telling that to the A-6 driver who just had an SA-2 shot at him , or the Marine who is pinned down by AK-47 fire.

I look forward to the day when honorable political policy allows these dedicated men and women to be known as the 'Worlds Firefighters' instead of the 'Worlds Police'.

Everybody cheers when the firefighters show up on a scene and get to work.

Everybody gets nervous when the cops arrive.​