Cindy Sheehan quits

[Annie]

Er... go back and read. Loosecannon mentioned Ayn Rand. Bern responded. Separate discussion threads.

As for Cindy Sheehan, I wouldn't take her silence before her son's death as any indication of anything. It's kind of like someone getting involved with M.A.D.D. after someone they love gets wiped out by someone who's sloshed out of their mind.

I read all that, I'm confused by what I quoted you as saying. Seriously, can you explain what you meant? I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

[jillian]

I read all that, I'm confused by what I quoted you as saying. Seriously, can you explain what you meant? I'm sure I'm missing something.

Bern made a comment in post 10 that I responded to. I'm not sure what else I can clarify.

 

[Annie]

Bern made a comment in post 10 that I responded to. I'm not sure what else I can clarify.

Do you mean this?

She chose to let her son's death motivate her in this fashion, that is why she is so maligned.

What does that have to do with the Iraq stuff you attribute to Rand? Do you have some link or something you are extrapolating from?

 

[Bern80]

Do you mean this?

Not really, below is what loosecannon originally said about Rand and what lead me to believe she doesn't get what she is about. Though that view is perfectly understandable from a liberal perspective.

Let's be real. And lets remember some of the few things Ayn Rand brought us that weren't merely justifications for greed and self service.

Principled stands and charity are also acts motivated by selfish motives.

Just interesting that we're told to be real and than she completely mischaracterizes the person.

What does that have to do with the Iraq stuff you attribute to Rand? Do you have some link or something you are extrapolating from?

Nothing as Jillian said. I just took issue with her characterization of Rand.
My favorite book by her and possibly of all time is Atlas Shrugged. Which is basically about what happens to society when the 'greedy' people take their ball and go home.

 

[Annie]

Not really, below is what loosecannon originally said about Rand and what lead me to believe she doesn't get what she is about. Though that view is perfectly understandable from a liberal perspective.



Just interesting that we're told to be real and than she completely mischaracterizes the person.




Nothing as Jillian said. I just took issue with her characterization of Rand.
My favorite book by her and possibly of all time is Atlas Shrugged. Which is basically about what happens to society when the 'greedy' people take their ball and go home.

I've read it, three times. Liked it and took away many lessons. Her response to Iraq was not one of them.

 

[loosecannon]

Just interesting that we're told to be real and than she completely mischaracterizes the person.

Then you read a different Rand than I did. As I understood Rand she was a tireless advocate for the virtue of self interest. And a social Darwinist as stated above. "Greed is a good thing because" pretty much sums up her social philosophy.

 

[loosecannon]

I've read it, three times. Liked it and took away many lessons. Her response to Iraq was not one of them.

Kathianne, you did miss something.

Nobody was connecting Rand with Iraq. They were connecting Sheehan with Iraq and discussing Ayn separately.

Well the rainman gave me two cures and he said jump right in. The one was Texas medicine, the other was just railroad gin. And like a fool I mixed them and it scrambled up my mind. And now people just get uglier and I have no sense of time...

Mona tried to tell me
To stay away from the train line.
She said that all the railroad men
Just drink up your blood like wine.
An' I said, "Oh, I didn't know that,
But then again, there's only one I've met
An' he just smoked my eyelids
An' punched my cigarette."

 

[Annie]

Kathianne, you did miss something.

Nobody was connecting Rand with Iraq. They were connecting Sheehan with Iraq and discussing Ayn separately.

Nobody? Who didn't read?

 

[Bern80]

Then you read a different Rand than I did. As I understood Rand she was a tireless advocate for the virtue of self interest. And a social Darwinist as stated above. "Greed is a good thing because" pretty much sums up her social philosophy.

I believe the following quotes prove otherwise all from Atlas Shrugged

I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

I could say to you that I have done more good for my fellow man than you can ever hope to accomplish - but I will not say it, because I do not seek the good of others as a sanction for my right to exist, nor do I recognize the good of others as a justification for their seizure of my property or their destruction of my life. I will not say that the good of others was the purpose of my work - my own good was my purpose, and I despise the man who surrenders his. I could say to you that you do not serve the public good - that nobody's good can be achieved at the price of human sacrifices - that when you violate the rights of one man, you have violated the rights of all, and a public of rightless creatures is doomed to destruction. I could say that you that you will and can achieve nothing but universal devastation - as any looter must, when he runs out of victims. I could say it, but I won't. It is not your particular policy that I challenge, but your moral premise.

Competition is a by-product of productive work, not its goal. A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others.

What exacltey did you read again? Tell me again what greed has to do with any of it? Then again you are exacltey the type of person she is talking about that confuses a desire to achieve with greed.

 

[Gunny]

They funded the supplemental weeks ago. To Bush, the Congress and the nation this had nothing at all to do with funding the supplemental.

It was surrendering to Bush's terms.

Or Congressional Dems trying to force Bush to surrender to theirs.

Budgets are the congress responsibility. So is declaring war. Congress surrendered BOTH and with catastrophic results.

Congress did not surrender the budget. The President presents a proposed budget to Congress. Congress includes it with the National budget. What Congress was forced to remove had nothing to do with a budget.

And Congress is just making crystal clear that no matter how damaging Bush is to the nation they will not stand up and rein him in. Even tho the constitution and the position they swore an oath to fulfill demand it.

Mark my words Gunny, the democratic party just died.




This is THE list.

Interesting theory. I said the same thing about Republicans last mid-term when their own constituents turned their backs to them. It's reflected in the sterling quality cnadidates offered collectively by both parties for President.

 

[loosecannon]

What exacltey did you read again? Tell me again what greed has to do with any of it? Then again you are exacltey the type of person she is talking about that confuses a desire to achieve with greed.

Your quotes only affirm what I said. Rand believes that self interest is the virtuous "good".

But even charity and morality are not selfless, but selfish acts.

If you are confounded i am sorry. I am paraphrasing the established concensus on Rand's philosophy.
She converts selfishness into a moral virtue. That is her trademark.

 

[loosecannon]

Interesting theory. I said the same thing about Republicans last mid-term when their own constituents turned their backs to them. It's reflected in the sterling quality cnadidates offered collectively by both parties for President.

Gunny it is not the presidents place to submit a budget. That is the Congress' responsibility.

And it is NOT the presidents place to declare war.

The congress abdicated it's authority. And it's responsibility.

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

THAT is broad powers over the budget and the military

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States

That is next to NO constitutional powers.

The Congress was established to execute almost all of the powers and responsibilities now exercised by the executive branch.

Including submitting a budget and declaring war.

 

[Annie]

Gunny it is not the presidents place to submit a budget. That is the Congress' responsibility.

And it is NOT the presidents place to declare war.

The congress abdicated it's authority. And it's responsibility.



THAT is broad powers over the budget and the military



That is next to NO constitutional powers.

The Congress was established to execute almost all of the powers and responsibilities now exercised by the executive branch.

Including submitting a budget and declaring war.

Well your logic nearly held. Problem is, the president is CIC, and Congress did fund it, even if not declared. Their bad.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I suggest you take a class on our government. The President is REQUIRED by law to submit a proposed budget to Congress.

As Commander in Chief the President is free to use the military in any manner he wants. The Congress controls the money, THEY decide if they will pay for what ever the President is up to. The Congress even passed a new law called the "War powers act" and I hate to tell you but the President met the requirements of that act. Congress VOTED to allow him to use force and invade Iraq. And they continue to pay for it.

 

[Bern80]

Your quotes only affirm what I said. Rand believes that self interest is the virtuous "good".

But even charity and morality are not selfless, but selfish acts.

If you are confounded i am sorry. I am paraphrasing the established concensus on Rand's philosophy.
She converts selfishness into a moral virtue. That is her trademark.

Again you perceive it that way because of your political leanings which makes perfect sense.

There is no possiblility what so ever that you are simply wrong. That what you perceive as selfish simply isn't. Given your condescending "I'm-smarter-than-you" tone I doubt you will even attempt to examine your assumptions. Your tone alone indicates that whatever consensus you believe there is, is not rooted in any type of objectivity as is apparent of your immediate translation of the desire to better one's self and achieve whatever they dream you immediatley and unthinkingly translated to selfishness.

Those quotes indicate that a society driven by the benefit of all will only be as good as it's lowest common denominator and that the authority that takes from one claiming to better the whole is in fact taking from the whole.

 

[Gunny]

Gunny it is not the presidents place to submit a budget. That is the Congress' responsibility.

Clarification: It is the President's place to submit the budget for the executive branch.

And it is NOT the presidents place to declare war.

Agreed.

The congress abdicated it's authority. And it's responsibility.

Agreed.

THAT is broad powers over the budget and the military

That is next to NO constitutional powers.

The Congress was established to execute almost all of the powers and responsibilities now exercised by the executive branch.

Including submitting a budget and declaring war.

The argument you're making now has been going on since John Adams with no clear-cut winner on either side. It ebbs and flows depending on who is President and who is Congress.

IMO, Congress can and has in the past assumed too much power. It's supposed to be a balancing act, but it never truly is.

 

[loosecannon]

Well your logic nearly held. Problem is, the president is CIC, and Congress did fund it, even if not declared. Their bad.

Agreed, their bad. They are enablers.

 

[Annie]

Agreed, their bad. They are enablers.

good job of picking the easiest ot respond to, but not so good as they will not let the points end.

 

[loosecannon]

I suggest you take a class on our government. The President is REQUIRED by law to submit a proposed budget to Congress.

LINK

As Commander in Chief the President is free to use the military in any manner he wants.

LINK

The Congress controls the money, THEY decide if they will pay for what ever the President is up to. The Congress even passed a new law called the "War powers act" and I hate to tell you but the President met the requirements of that act. Congress VOTED to allow him to use force and invade Iraq. And they continue to pay for it.

Exactly, the president's authorities are absconded from the congress and relinquished by the congress. The entire lot of them should be/would be impeached if they were not culpable at large.

 

[Annie]

LINK



LINK



Exactly, the president's authorities are absconded from the congress and relinquished by the congress. The entire lot of them should be/would be impeached if they were not culpable at large.

Truly it's kinda retarded to ask for links for the basic underpinnings of our republic. Did you ditch both jr. high and jr. year of hs?