Christians should not support the war on terror

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Luke 7:27-30--"But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the personwho takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic".

-->Gun owners: Toss the gun and get a dog. If someone gets in your home just lock yourself in a room, call the cops...Break-ins are rarely ever for the purpose of homicide. You actually are at greater risk if you walk up to a robber with a gun, as he may have one too.

It's been a good while since I read the New Testament, but I believe there is a passage in which Jesus instructs one of his disciples to take his sword and perform an errand. Maybe someone else knows what passage I'm talking about. That doesn't really sound like instructions to put yourself at the mercy of common thieves.

edit: This explains it better

I do agree that agressive war is not biblical however.

 

[Hobbit]

Then stone me.

I don't know what else to tell you.

Look, you come on here with the wild claims that Christians shouldn't be owning guns, voting for Republicans (who actually protect the church), or watching Pat Robertson (who has a few whacked views and talks faster than he thinks, yes). You make sweeping generalizations about most Christians, presume to tell us what we're all doing wrong, then offer that non-apology that explains that you really only accept the parts of the Bible that you like. It looks more like you're trying to save face than a sincere apology. Now, the situation's still salvagable, but if you truly want to get back on a reputable road here, you're going to have to accept the fact that the way you started out this thread was either REALLY cocky or REALLY stupid. I have made similar mistakes, and I paid for them, but the road to recovery starts with acceptance of the problem and an attempt at reconciliation.

I don't want to stone you, but some disclaimer about how you have your own interperetation of the Bible which, taken in context with your other posts, means you just blow off certain parts of the Bible as not really meaning what they say, is not going to exhonorate you from coming on here and telling the rest of us how we should all be living for God.

 

[Hobbit]

It's been a good while since I read the New Testament, but I believe there is a passage in which Jesus instructs one of his disciples to take his sword and perform an errand. Maybe someone else knows what passage I'm talking about. That doesn't really sound like instructions to put yourself at the mercy of common thieves.

I do agree that agressive war is not biblical however.

War is inherantly aggressive, but if you're referring to the idea of declaring war on an enemy before they delcare war on us, I'd like to ask how you explain the war against Canaan. I also believe that God would not want us to do something so tactically stupid as allowing the enemy to dictate the time, place, and terms of the fight. God knows that doing that is asking for defeat, and I also think God would want us to use the power he has given us to help others, like the Iraqi people.

 

[1549]

Look, you come on here with the wild claims that Christians shouldn't be owning guns, voting for Republicans (who actually protect the church), or watching Pat Robertson (who has a few whacked views and talks faster than he thinks, yes). You make sweeping generalizations about most Christians, presume to tell us what we're all doing wrong, then offer that non-apology that explains that you really only accept the parts of the Bible that you like. It looks more like you're trying to save face than a sincere apology. Now, the situation's still salvagable, but if you truly want to get back on a reputable road here, you're going to have to accept the fact that the way you started out this thread was either REALLY cocky or REALLY stupid. I have made similar mistakes, and I paid for them, but the road to recovery starts with acceptance of the problem and an attempt at reconciliation.

If someone was offended, I offer them my most sincere apology. I was not looking to offend.

If you want an apology from me for believing what I believe...you won't get one. My thoughts are my thoughts. I did not generalize all Christians. I just personally believe that the christians who own guns and are pro-war or support Pat Robertson are betraying the central message of the religion.

If you disagree, you disagree...and that is fine with me. I never said: I AM RIGHT...YOU ARE WRONG. I merely stated where I draw my conclusions from. From there, it was open to disucssion.

As far as the textual analysis. Make a claim based on the bible...and then see if someone can not come up with a biblical contradiction. I thought the passages I chose represent themes in the new testament: of (1) not using violence (2) loving thy neighbor (3) choosing charity and not greed

 

[dmp]

dude...15whatever..

You are right to believe what you wish, just know your beliefs are not based on the reality of the Bible.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

War is inherantly aggressive, but if you're referring to the idea of declaring war on an enemy before they delcare war on us, I'd like to ask how you explain the war against Canaan. I also believe that God would not want us to do something so tactically stupid as allowing the enemy to dictate the time, place, and terms of the fight. God knows that doing that is asking for defeat, and I also think God would want us to use the power he has given us to help others, like the Iraqi people.

I don't really know; I'm not actually much of a bible scholar. The explanation I dimly remember is: God instructed the Israelites to make war on particular tribes, not aggressive war as a general principle. The Canaanites don't exist anymore so you can't really extrapolate anything from that.

I think God would want us to help the Iraqi people, yes. Not kill them or bomb them or kill their children with sanctions.

 

[Hobbit]

If someone was offended, I offer them my most sincere apology. I was not looking to offend.

If you want an apology from me for believing what I believe...you won't get one. My thoughts are my thoughts. I did not generalize all Christians. I just personally believe that the christians who own guns and are pro-war or support Pat Robertson are betraying the central message of the religion.

This is what's called a "Dick Durbin" apology. You're not sorry you said what you said. You're sorry somebody was offended by it. It's a non-apology. I'm not asking for an apology on what you believe, but an apology on the condescending tone with which you expressed it.

If you disagree, you disagree...and that is fine with me. I never said: I AM RIGHT...YOU ARE WRONG. I merely stated where I draw my conclusions from. From there, it was open to disucssion.

The title of the thread is "Christians should not support the war on terror." It is never explained in the initial statement that this is merely opinion. It is stated as if it is fact. While you never specifically said "I AM RIGHT...YOU ARE WRONG," the statement of a pretty radical opinion in the same way another would state a fact is the equivalent of claiming correctness. It wasn't until we jumped on you that you started backpedaling with all this "Well, it's just my opinion" stuff.

As far as the textual analysis. Make a claim based on the bible...and then see if someone can not come up with a biblical contradiction. I thought the passages I chose represent themes in the new testament: of (1) not using violence (2) loving thy neighbor (3) choosing charity and not greed

Now, this is where we can get into intelligent debate. For the three principles...

Not using violence: Jesus used violence. What Jesus did not use was unnecessary violence. However, total non-violence only works against an enemy with a concience. It worked against the British in India, because the British could not bring themselves to use violence against people that wouldn't return it in kind. It worked against the KKK hold in government during the civil rights movement for the same reason. Islamofascists, on the other hand, don't have the same view of human life as others. On September 11, 15 Islamic terrorists took over airplanes full of people who wouldn't use violence against them in return and crashed into a civilian building that also had never hurt them. Only the violence on United Airlines' flight 93 was able to save whatever lives would have been lost had that plane found its target. Jesus knew the violent nature of the world and knew that people only lived in peace when violence was done on their behalf. Now, while I'm a generally pacifistic person who won't attack unless I see no other option, I fully support the war on terror as the only way to protect our way of life from those who would end it, whether we turn the other cheek or not. Turning the other cheek to an Islamofascist will only get you two hurt cheeks.

Love thy Neighbor: The terrorists aren't our only neighbors. Those they prey on, like the Iraqis, Afghanis, and Europeans are also our neighbors. Isn't protecting your neighbor from, you know, DEATH, a good way to show your love. Remember that "No greater love has any man than that he lay down his life for a friend."

Charity and not Greed: If Iraq isn't charity, then what is. We easily could have carpet bombed the place and told them to sort it out. Instead, we took extra precautions to minimize collateral damage and our tax dollars are rebuilding the country. That's charity.

 

[Hobbit]

I don't really know; I'm not actually much of a bible scholar. The explanation I dimly remember is: God instructed the Israelites to make war on particular tribes, not aggressive war as a general principle. The Canaanites don't exist anymore so you can't really extrapolate anything from that.

I think God would want us to help the Iraqi people, yes. Not kill them or bomb them or kill their children with sanctions.

Those were U.N. sanctions that are no longer in place. That story is over 4 years old. Then there's the fact that while the sanctions were "starving" Iraqi children, Saddam's palaces didn't get any less extravagant. And, if the Oil for Food program had been working the way it was meant to, the sanctions wouldn't have starved anyone.

As for killing and bombing them, we never intentionally kill any civilians in Iraq. If you think we do, you're delusional. As far as accidental deaths, our *expensive* precautions and high-tech precision have caused our military to have the lowest rate of civilian casualties in history, unless you believe the anstronomical figures which show an extremely disproportionate number of 'civilian' males between 18 and 40, indicating that they included anyone not wearing a uniform, including armed terrorists actively shooting at our troops.

 

[Nuc]

I said it so eloquantly before, that I think I'll say it again.

How DARE you even begin to lecture me on what Christianity means and what God would want me to do. You spineless, shameless liberals are all the same. You spend soooo much of your time blaming everything on Christians, telling us how backwards we are and how we're all living in the past just because we think unhealthy, unproductive homosexual relationships and killing your child before are wrong. You pound us continuously about how we're a bunch of backward hicks holding back progress in all areas and how if we'd just stop being so f-ing stupid and wake up, everybody would be a lot better off. Then, when it suits your twisted, selfish little agenda, you godless heathens take one or two verses, out of context, and presume to tell those of us who have personally talked to God that God would dissapprove of our actions. Just who the hell do YOU think you ARE?! Have you talked to God? No? Sit down. You lose. Now, until you can actually read and UNDERSTAND the Bible, don't you even begin to tell me that I can't own guns for hunting God's bounty or protecting what God has given me. Don't tell me I can't vote for politicians that oppose the sanction of abominable sexual practices. And you sure as hell better not tell me that I shouldn't watch a preacher on TV whose primary fault is talking before thinking.

The idea that anybody like you would even pretent to lecture ANYBODY on what Christianity really is makes me sick to my stomach. You just have all the answers, don't you?

Cute. Very cute. Would Jesus approve of this so called "war"? If so why?

 

[Hobbit]

Cute. Very cute. Would Jesus approve of this so called "war"? If so why?

We've been over this time and time again, and I won't repeat myself for your amusement. I've seen you ask these things before, and in the past, all you ever did was tell them how wrong they are without being specific, then give up and walk away when you were cornered, so I'm willing to just skip the whole argument and call it a draw.

 

[manu1959]

Cute. Very cute. Would Jesus approve of this so called "war"? If so why?

no i am sure he would ask the muslims to turn the other cheek rather than kill innocents

 

[Nuc]

We've been over this time and time again, and I won't repeat myself for your amusement. I've seen you ask these things before, and in the past, all you ever did was tell them how wrong they are without being specific, then give up and walk away when you were cornered, so I'm willing to just skip the whole argument and call it a draw.

No we haven't. Would Jesus approve of this war or not? Explain why or why not. I would like to see how you explain that Jesus supports this war.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

I fully support the war on terror as the only way to protect our way of life from those who would end it, whether we turn the other cheek or not. Turning the other cheek to an Islamofascist will only get you two hurt cheeks.

How are they going to end our way of life, exactly? I've never heard it explained. Are they going to land an army over here, and enforce 5 daily prayers towards Mecca?

Charity and not Greed: If Iraq isn't charity, then what is. We easily could have carpet bombed the place and told them to sort it out. Instead, we took extra precautions to minimize collateral damage and our tax dollars are rebuilding the country. That's charity.

Iraq isn't charity. Iraq is a military occupation. If it were a charity, people would love us and plead with us not to leave. No, the Iraqi people are overwhelmingly in favor of the withdrawal of US troops.

 

[1549]

Now, while I'm a generally pacifistic person who won't attack unless I see no other option, I fully support the war on terror as the only way to protect our way of life from those who would end it, whether we turn the other cheek or not. Turning the other cheek to an Islamofascist will only get you two hurt cheeks.

Love thy Neighbor: The terrorists aren't our only neighbors. Those they prey on, like the Iraqis, Afghanis, and Europeans are also our neighbors."

Charity and not Greed: If Iraq isn't charity, then what is. We easily could have carpet bombed the place and told them to sort it out. Instead, we took extra precautions to minimize collateral damage and our tax dollars are rebuilding the country. That's charity.

1: The problem could be solved in a far less costly and dramatic fashion. The administration was able to use one attack to create an all out war to cleanse the world of terrorist: a goal that is costly and will never happen. Internal strife is more capable of tearing down America than Osama Bin Laden.

2: Afghanis, they did get a better life. Iraqi's: the jury is still out overall, but yes some did. Europeans: probably wish we had not set foot in the middle east.

3: We just destroyed their country and they have to somehow build a democracy. It will be especially tough considering the country is divided among ethnic lines...if they mess it up, there will probably be calls for genocide.

I know this is the war on terror thread, but there was so much more to my point than global politics. On the domestic front we need to do a better job of each. Overall there is not enough love (gay bashing, structural violence, hate based on race), and certainly not enough charity (from the government).

 

[manu1959]

No we haven't. Would Jesus approve of this war or not? Explain why or why not. I would like to see how you explain that Jesus supports this war.

the arabs want to kill the jews and chritians...jesus as the son and go would most likely end up taking the same position as god when similar things in the past occured.....the arabs would be fucked....

would alah approve of this war or not? explain why or why not. i would like to see you explain that alah supports this war

 

[Hobbit]

1: The problem could be solved in a far less costly and dramatic fashion. The administration was able to use one attack to create an all out war to cleanse the world of terrorist: a goal that is costly and will never happen. Internal strife is more capable of tearing down America than Osama Bin Laden.

Yeah, internal problems are bad, but external problems are also bad, and while we need to fix the internals, we can't do so at the expense of fixing the externals.

2: Afghanis, they did get a better life. Iraqi's: the jury is still out overall, but yes some did. Europeans: probably wish we had not set foot in the middle east.

It's not as bad in Iraq as the news portrays. I have friends who have been there and back, and even those who were in the Fallujah standoff and invasion say it's not half as bad as people seem to the think. The Iraqis are optimistic.

3: We just destroyed their country and they have to somehow build a democracy. It will be especially tough considering the country is divided among ethnic lines...if they mess it up, there will probably be calls for genocide.

See above.

I know this is the war on terror thread, but there was so much more to my point than global politics. On the domestic front we need to do a better job of each. Overall there is not enough love (gay bashing, structural violence, hate based on race), and certainly not enough charity (from the government).

NO! BAD! The government is NOT a charity organization. It is not the government's job to support people who can't support themselves. Charity should be left to private individuals, as I think private individuals are much better at determining worthwhile charities than governments. Governments are things to be feared, not entrusted with EVERYTHING.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

No we haven't. Would Jesus approve of this war or not? Explain why or why not. I would like to see how you explain that Jesus supports this war.

Jesus would neither support or oppose the war. If you noticed, every time the scribes and pharisees tried to corner him in such a way, he turned the tables on them, like the woman committing adultery. He forced them into the situation where THEY had to make the decision, instead of Jesus making one, which is what it started out as, a question for Jesus.

If Chrisitanity in itself is opposed to all wars, then why were the Jews allowed and ordered by the CHRISTIAN God to go to war to defend their homeland and religion?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

It's been a good while since I read the New Testament, but I believe there is a passage in which Jesus instructs one of his disciples to take his sword and perform an errand. Maybe someone else knows what passage I'm talking about. That doesn't really sound like instructions to put yourself at the mercy of common thieves.

edit: This explains it better

I do agree that agressive war is not biblical however.

Jesus is also quoted as saying "I do not come to bring peace, I come with a sword to make division, between mother and daughter, father and son..."
kinda paraphrased.

He also got quite violent with the money changers.

He also preached quite a bit of hatred to those who are hypocrites and blasphemers.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

How are they going to end our way of life, exactly? I've never heard it explained. Are they going to land an army over here, and enforce 5 daily prayers towards Mecca?.

Iraq isn't charity. Iraq is a military occupation. If it were a charity, people would love us and plead with us not to leave. No, the Iraqi people are overwhelmingly in favor of the withdrawal of US troops.

You are not aware of the way they are currently do a very good job of taking over Europe? They will employ the same strategy here if they can.

Your second line is pure propaganda. Its taken from polls where the Iraqis want us to leave EVENTUALLY, but for the ouster of saddam and the temporary occupation, the majority support it.
We are spending hundreds of millions of dollars rebuilding their schools, hospitals, infrastructure etc. If that isnt charity, what is?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

the arabs want to kill the jews and chritians...jesus as the son and go would most likely end up taking the same position as god when similar things in the past occured.....the arabs would be fucked....

would alah approve of this war or not? explain why or why not. i would like to see you explain that alah supports this war

actually, you should ask if Mohamed would support it, and the answer is an overwhelming YES! Then he would have tons of nine year old christian little girls he could rape and do his pedophilia act on.