Christians at War

[Turboswede]

I have posted this on a couple of political forum boards and so far all I get is hate mail (from the right) or unintelligent rants about how Christians are all hypocrites (from the left). I am genuinely curious as to reasoning behind the Christian acceptance of war as a means of settling international conflicts. I also would like to know how so many Christians can make a living from serving voluntarily in te armed forces, while other Christians asserted their status as conscientious objectors durring WW2, the Korean War and Vietnam based on the same religion and texts.

My upbringing was Catholic and Anglican (ok Episcopal here in the US of A) and I consider my religious background fairly common (Sunday school, etc.). After entering my teens I stopped going to church as I had other things to do on Sunday morning.

Even with my limited exposure to Christianity I still came away with the ideas of turning the other cheek, the meek shall inherit the earth, treating people with kindness that treat you with scorn, etc. My question is how can devout Christians go to war and actively volunteer for military service?

I would not consider my self a devout Christian or a pacifist and I understand that there are times when military force is warranted, but it seams hypocritical to claim to be dedicated to the teachings of Christ (as I understand them) and make the voluntary choice to enter a profession that is centered around…well…honestly…killing other people.

I do remember reading something somewhere that stated Christ would not consider killing for the state a sin, is that correct? If so what was the Christians beef with Rome?

I know this post may be inflammatory, but I am interested in actually understanding why it’s ok for Christians to kill for the state, why would JC approve?

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know, it IS possible for a devout Man (or Woman) of God to be in the military.

You do realize that angels are actually warriors for God, right? Kinda why whenever they show up in front of people, their first words are "be not afraid".

Not only that, but King David, Joshua, as well as many others were in the military, and they fought, and occasionally took life in defense of their land and families.

How do I know? I'm pretty well acquainted with who HaShem is, and I spent 20 years in the Navy.

Oh yeah........the Marines have a pretty devout belief in God also.

 

[Turboswede]

Thanks,

I know this is a very sensitive subject but I am looking more for New Testament support for war and (specifically) why a military profession would be viewed faviorably. I know the Old Testament is replete with examples of God’s acceptance of war and the warrior ethos, but that would seem to support a member of the IDF more than a US Marine, right?

It just seems weird that Mennonites can avoid serving their country in times of conscription due to passages in the same text carried by mercenaries into battle.

 

[Diuretic]

I don't know much about it but I do know that you might be referring to the "just war" formulation. It was, I think, originaly proposed by St Augustine and it is also expanded upon by Aquinas (it's in Summa Theologica). It's actually interesting to read the strictures.

And I don't see anything inflammatory about the question. But then I'm a non-believer so I suppose I see it differently from some believers.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Thanks,

I know this is a very sensitive subject but I am looking more for New Testament support for war and (specifically) why a military profession would be viewed faviorably. I know the Old Testament is replete with examples of God’s acceptance of war and the warrior ethos, but that would seem to support a member of the IDF more than a US Marine, right?

It just seems weird that Mennonites can avoid serving their country in times of conscription due to passages in the same text carried by mercenaries into battle.

Just out of curiosity, why are you specifically looking for NT references? Your reference to Mennonites avoiding service kinda makes me wonder if you're building a case to get out of a military contract. Nothing against you, just curiosity.

And......nope, the IDF is Israel's equivalent to our military. They've got different specialized branches.

 

[xsited1]

The Bible allows for the killing of enemy soldiers in war. Aside from several passages in the Old Testament, here are some passages in the New:

"Or what king, going to make war against another king, sits not down first, and consults whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that comes against him with twenty thousand?" Luke 14:31

"For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Romans 13:4

However, if a Christian knows that a war goes against God, he has the right to refuse to fight it in obedience to a higher power. Peter said, "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

As far as the death penalty goes, the Hebrew Scripture's codes were still being applied during the time of Jesus.

I suggest you read a Bible with an extensive concordance. Bible stories like the 'turn the other cheek' story, for example, usually get misinterpreted.

 

[ABikerSailor]

The Bible allows for the killing of enemy soldiers in war. Aside from several passages in the Old Testament, here are some passages in the New:





However, if a Christian knows that a war goes against God, he has the right to refuse to fight it in obedience to a higher power. Peter said, "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

As far as the death penalty goes, the Hebrew Scripture's codes were still being applied during the time of Jesus.

I suggest you read a Bible with an extensive concordance. Bible stories like the 'turn the other cheek' story, for example, usually get misinterpreted.

Yep. When Yeshua said "turn the other cheek", he was talking about being backhanded like a slave. If they hit you like a slave, Yeshua told his followers to tell them to hit you like a free person with the FRONT of their hand, which basically means......game on.

 

[Turboswede]

Just out of curiosity, why are you specifically looking for NT references? Your reference to Mennonites avoiding service kinda makes me wonder if you're building a case to get out of a military contract. Nothing against you, just curiosity.

And......nope, the IDF is Israel's equivalent to our military. They've got different specialized branches.

I am looking more for NT references because I would like to know if Jesus was in favor of military service, specifically professional military service. That’s why I made reference to the IDF, isn’t the key difference between Christian and Judaism the acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah?

In school I studied Mennonite resistance to conscription during the 1st world war and how it led to the establishment of the contentious objector classification. The original CO class required that the CO needed to be part or a religious group that, due to their religious beliefs, would not be allowed to participate in any war.

Due to the CO classification many Christians avoided conscription in WW2, and in my book you can’t find a more just war in history. In addition service wasn’t a choice for Mennonites and Quakers in the 2nd world war, we were conscripting every able bodied male between 21-35 because we were defending our country from foreign invaders.

 

[Turboswede]

However, if a Christian knows that a war goes against God, he has the right to refuse to fight it in obedience to a higher power. Peter said, "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

From those quotes it seems that a Christian would need to be able to make a decision about whether the war is in the furtherance of God’s will, is that correct?

It also seems that scripture supports the idea of fighting enemy soldiers, is there also scripture providing for the accidental death of non combatants?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Yep. When Yeshua said "turn the other cheek", he was talking about being backhanded like a slave. If they hit you like a slave, Yeshua told his followers to tell them to hit you like a free person with the FRONT of their hand, which basically means......game on.

This actualyl goes a bit deeper... the back hand would have come from the left hand, which is the foul hand... with which one performs unclean tasks. Thus the slap was designed to humiliate the unclean, those below them, those unfit for God. But turning the other cheek they were forced to use the clean right hand, proving them violent and full of rage; which proved them unclean and unfit for God...

 

[Shogun]

An Eye for an Eye
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


You pharisee motherfuckers never cease to make me laugh.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

I am looking more for NT references because I would like to know if Jesus was in favor of military service, specifically professional military service. That’s why I made reference to the IDF, isn’t the key difference between Christian and Judaism the acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah?

In school I studied Mennonite resistance to conscription during the 1st world war and how it led to the establishment of the contentious objector classification. The original CO class required that the CO needed to be part or a religious group that, due to their religious beliefs, would not be allowed to participate in any war.

Due to the CO classification many Christians avoided conscription in WW2, and in my book you can’t find a more just war in history. In addition service wasn’t a choice for Mennonites and Quakers in the 2nd world war, we were conscripting every able bodied male between 21-35 because we were defending our country from foreign invaders.

Given that the founding premise is that the United States is a nation which rests on the self evident principle that God exists; that human life itself is a gift endowed onto each individual and that the gift of life indicates God's will is that each life is entitled to pursue the fulfillment of that life; a gift which comes with the sacred responsibility to defend that unalienable right and the gift of life in one's self and those around one from unjustified threat...



And given that Christians believe that Christ was God incarnate, the human son of God, who came to earth to provide his grace to humanity which he realized was simply incapable of taking fellowship with God otherwise... so he came to earth, existing in human form, living a sin free life, and in the prime of that life, accepted an unjust verdict which he knew would expose his human body to unspeakable, sustained torment... just so his fellow humans would not have to pay the price for their failue to maintain God's standard... wherein each individual would otherwise endure sustained, unspeakable torment... so Christ sacrificed his humanity to give each of us an equal opportunity to avoid the afore mentioned unspeakable torment...

And given that it can be argued that military service is, certainly to a lesser degree, a similar sacrifice... I'd say that reason suggest that it's within Christian values to serve in the Military. Where FTR: one remains duty bound to the same responsibilities... to not kill without valid moral justification or to infringe on the rights of others to exercise their own rights.

 

[Shogun]

I tellya.. nothing says "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES" quite like a three paragraph stack of bullshit rationalizing killing for christians killers!




Lord knows red lettered scripture aint got SHIT on Pube's little excuse to kill...



fucking dogma junkies and their personal excuses for crusades...

 

[Turboswede]

And given that it can be argued that military service is, certainly to a lesser degree, a similar sacrifice... I'd say that reason suggest that it's within Christian values to serve in the Military. Where FTR: one remains duty bound to the same responsibilities... to not kill without valid moral justification or to infringe on the rights of others to exercise their own rights.

But then wouldn’t volunteering for military service be taking the decision not to kill without moral justification out of the hands of the individual?

If so would an individual who volunteered for service still be held to the same standard of moral justification regardless of the personal cost?

 

[Turboswede]

fucking dogma junkies and their personal excuses for crusades...

Shogun, this is not helping

 

[dilloduck]

Shogun, this is not helping

Well you know full well that there are about a zillion sects of Christianity who all have thier own special way of following. When you ask a question like " what do Christians think about ______ ? " you're going to get a million different answers.

 

[Diuretic]

SUMMA THEOLOGICA: War (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 40)

Question 40. War
Is some kind of war lawful?
Is it lawful for clerics to fight?
Is it lawful for belligerents to lay ambushes?
Is it lawful to fight on holy days?

The answers to those questions are in Aquinas' Summa Theologica, more at link.

 

[Turboswede]

Well you know full well that there are about a zillion sects of Christianity who all have thier own special way of following. When you ask a question like " what do Christians think about ______ ? " you're going to get a million different answers.

Point taken, but I am interested in the different answers that I receive. I know there are a lot of different ideas out there, and I am excited about hearing them.

 

[Turboswede]

The answers to those questions are in Aquinas' Summa Theologica, more at link.

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of thing I have been looking for. From these arguments once the Sovereign decides on war, it I the duty of the individual soldier to follow the orders of the Sovereign even if the soldier were to conclude individually that the war was unjust.

At that point the burden of whether or not to go to war would be the responsibility of the Sovereign.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

I tellya.. nothing says "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES" quite like a three paragraph stack of bullshit rationalizing killing for christians killers!




Lord knows red lettered scripture aint got SHIT on Pube's little excuse to kill...



fucking dogma junkies and their personal excuses for crusades...

Ain't it cool how this 'arsenokoitai' feel like they can evoke the word of God, despite themselves being an abomination to God?

This individual is a conclusively established advocate for adult/child sex; a sexual deviant... a human being that walks a life of debauchery; whose life is fixed upon evil.

But of course, that DOES explain why she is in here trying to lead people to believe that they are required by Christ's word to allow any evil to perpetuate... advancing the idiocy that Christ requires his flock to condone evil, to even double its output if such is forced upon us…

Friends this member represents what the ideological left is all about… lies and spiritual / intellectual dead ends.