Christianity vs. Islam thread

Arabian

Member
Aug 19, 2004
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Egypt
You're evil. Last time I checked, Musliim theocracies were not a shinning example of "human rights". It's hardly a secret, but Muslim theocracies are utter failures when it comes to honouring basic human rights such as freedom of , religion, speach, association and so on - so much so that claiming otherwise would be a lie. That combined with the blatant aggressiveness and abuses inflicted on those who don't comply with the rules are just one example of their failures. Dependency on oil and rugs isn't good either, but that's a topic for another forum.
this is a quote a member sent to me and I just made it in a new third cause I think we will talk about something irrelevant from the main thread…
1st im not evil ,, u cant judge me cuz im just Arabian or Muslim,, by this u will lose human rights u are talking about,,,,,,
back to the main subject ,, you said that there is no human rights in Islam,, and I send you back this
Human rights in Islam I know its big but there are lots of human rights in Islam

BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS

The first thing that we find in Islam in this connection is that it lays down some rights for man as a human being. In other words it means that every man whether he belongs to this country or that, whether he is a believer or unbeliever, whether he lives in some forest or is found in some desert, whatever be the case, he has some basic human rights simply because he is a human being, which should be recognized by every Muslim. In fact it will be his duty to fulfil these obligations.

1. The Right to Life
The first and the foremost basic right is the right to live and respect human life. The Holy Quran lays down:
Whosoever kills a human being without (any reason like) man slaughter, or corruption on earth, it is as though he had killed all mankind ... (5:32)
As far as the question of taking life in retaliation for murder or the question of punishment for spreading corruption on this earth is con- cerned, it can be decided only by a proper and competent court of law. If there is any war with any nation or country, it can be decided only by a properly established government. In any case, no human being has any right by himself to take human life in retaliation or for causing mischief on this earth. Therefore it is incumbent on every human being that under no circumstances should he be guilty of taking a human life. If anyone has murdered a human being, it is as if he has slain the entire human race. These instructions have been repeated in the Holy Quran in another place saying:
Do not kill a soul which Allah has made sacred except through the due process of law ... (6:151)
The Right to the Safety of Life
Immediately after the verse of the Holy Quran which has been mentioned in connection with the right to life, God has said: "And whoever saves a life it is as though he had saved the lives of all mankind" (5:32). There can be several forms of saving man from death. A man may be ill or wounded, irrespective of his nationality, race or colour. If you know that he is in need of your help, then it is your duty that you should arrange for his treatment for disease or wound. If he is dying of starvation, then it is your duty to feed him so that he can ward off death. If he is drowning or his life is at stake, then it is your duty to save him. You will be surprised to hear that the Talmud, the religious book of the Jews, contains a verse of similar nature, but records it in altogether different form. It says: "Whoever destroyed a life of the Israelite, in the eyes of the Scripture, it is as if he destroyed the whole world. And whoever protected and saved one life of the Israelite, in the light of the Scripture, it is as if he saved the whole world." Talmud also contains the view that if a non-Israelite is drowning and you tried to save him then you are a sinner. Can it be given a name other than racialism? We regard it as our duty to save every human life, because it is thus that we have been enjoined in the Holy Quran. On the other hand, if they regard it necessary to save the life of a human being at all, it should be the life of an Israelite. As far as other people are concerned, according to this view, they do not seem to be human enough to deserve protection of their persons. In their literature the concept of 'Goyim' for which the English word 'Gentile' and the Arabic word ummi (illiterate) is used, is that they enjoy no human rights; human rights are reserved only for the children of Israel. The Quran has mentioned this belief of the Israelites and quotes the Jews saying: "There is no blame on us (for anything we may do) with regard to the unlettered folk (i.e. the ummi)" (3:75).
Respect for the Chastity of Women
The third important thing that we find in the Charter of Human Rights granted by Islam is that a woman's chastity has to be respected and protected under all circumstances, whether she belongs to our own nation or to the nation of an enemy, whether we find her in the wild forest or in a conquered city; whether she is our co-religionist or belongs to some other religion or has no religion at all. A Muslim cannot outrage her under any circumstances. All promiscuous relation- ship has been forbidden to him, irrespective of the status or position of the woman, whether the woman is a willing or an unwilling partner to the act. The words of the Holy Quran in this respect are: "Do not approach (the bounds of) adultery" (17:32). Heavy punishment has been prescribed for this crime, and the order has not been qualified by any conditions. Since the violation of chastity of a woman is forbidden in Islam, a Muslim who perpetrates this crime cannot escape punishment whether he receives it in this world or in the Hereafter. This concept of sanctity of chastity and protection of women can be found nowhere else except in Islam. The armies of the Western powers need the daughters of their nation to satisfy their carnal appetites even in their own countries, and if they happen to occupy another country, the fate of its women folk can better be imagined than described. But the history of the Muslims, apart from a few lapses of the individuals here or there, has been free from this crime against womanhood. It has never happened that after the conquest of a foreign country the Muslim army has gone about raping the women of the conquered people, or in their own country, the government has arranged to provide prostitutes1for them. This is also a great blessing which the human race has received through Islam.2

Individual's Right to Freedom
Islam has clearly and categorically forbidden the primitive practice of capturing a free man, to make him a slave or to sell him into slavery. On this point the clear and unequivocal words of the Prophet (S) are as follows: "There are three categories of people against whom I shall myself be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgement. Of these three, one is he who enslaves a free man, then sells him and eats this money" (al-Bukhari and Ibn Majjah). The words of this Tradition of the Prophet are also general, they have not been qualified or made applicable to a particular nation, race, country or followers of a particular religion. The Europeans take great pride in claiming that they abolished slavery from the world, though they had the decency to do so only in the middle of the last century. Before this, these Western powers had been raiding Africa on a very large scale, capturing their free men, putting them in bondage and transporting them to their new colonies. The treatment which they have meted out to these unfortunate people has been worse than the treatment given to animals. The books written by the Western people themselves bear testimony to this fact.

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The Right to Justice
This is a very important and valuable right which Islam has given to man as a human being. The Holy Quran has laid down: "Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression" (5:2). "And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:8). Stressing this point the Quran again says: "You who believe stand steadfast before God as witness for (truth and) fairplay" (4:135). This makes the point clear that Muslims have to be just not only with ordinary human beings but even with their enemies. In other words, the justice to which Islam invites her followers is not limited only to the citizens of their own country, or the people of their own tribe, nation or race, or the Muslim community as a whole, but it is meant for all the human beings of the world. Muslims therefore, cannot be unjust to anyone. Their permanent habit and character should be such that no man should ever fear injustice at their hands, and they should treat every human being everywhere with justice and fairness.

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Equality of Human Beings
Islam not only recognizes absolute equality between men irrespective of any distinction of colour, race or nationality, but makes it an important and significant principle, a reality. The Almighty God has laid down in the Holy Quran: "O mankind, we have created you from a male and female." In other words all human beings are brothers to one another. They all are the descendants from one father and one mother. "And we set you up as nations and tribes so that you may be able to recognize each other" (49:13). This means that the division of human beings into nations, races, groups and tribes is for the sake of distinction, so that people of one race or tribe may meet and be acquainted with the people belonging to another race or tribe and cooperate with one another. This division of the human race is neither meant for one nation to take pride in its superiority over others nor is it meant for one nation to treat another with contempt or disgrace, or regard them as a mean and degraded race and usurp their rights. "Indeed, the noblest among you before God are the most heedful of you" (49:13). In other words the superiority of one man over another is only on the basis of God-consciousness, purity of character and high morals, and not on the basis of colour, race, language or nationality, and even this superiority based on piety and pure conduct does not justify that such people should play lord or assume airs of superiority over other human beings. Assuming airs of superiority is in itself a reprehensible vice which no God-fearing and pious man can ever dream of perpetrating. Nor does the righteous have more privileged rights over others, because this runs counter to human equality, which has been laid down in the beginning of this verse as a general principle. From the moral point of view, goodness and virtue is in all cases better than vice and evil.
This has been exemplified by the Prophet in one of his sayings thus: "No Arab has any superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over an Arab. Nor does a white man have any superiority over a black man, or the black man any superiority over the white man. You are all the children of Adam, and Adam was created from clay" (al-Bayhaqi and al-Bazzaz). In this manner Islam established equality for the entire human race and struck at the very root of all distinctions based on colour, race, language or nationality. According to Islam,God has given man this right of equality as a birthright. Therefore no man should be discriminated against on the ground of the colour of his skin, his place of birth, the race or the nation in which he was born. Malcolm X, the famous leader of African Negroes in America, who had launched a bitter struggle against the white people of America in order to win civil rights for his black compatriots, when he went to perform the pilgrimage, and saw how the Muslims of Asia, Africa, Europe, America and those of different races, languages and colours of skin, were wearing one dress and were hurrying towards God's House-the Ka'bah and offering prayers standing in one row and there was no distinction of any kind between them, then he realized that this was the solution to the problem of colour and race, and not what he had been trying to seek or achieve in America so far. Today, a number of non- Muslim thinkers, who are free from blind prejudice, openly admit that no other religion or way of life has solved this problem with the same degree of success with which Islam has done so.

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The Right to Co-operate and Not to Co-operate
Islam has prescribed a general principle of paramount importance and universal application saying: "Co-operate with one another for virtue and heedfulness and do not co-operate with one another for the purpose of vice and aggression" (5:2). This means that the man who undertakes a noble and righteous work, irrespective of the fact whether he is living at the North Pole or the South Pole, has the right to expect support and active co-operation from the Muslims. On the contrary he who perpetrates deeds of vice and aggression, even if he is our closest relation or neighbour, does not have the right to win our support and help in the name of race, country, language or nationality, nor should he have the expectation that Muslims will co-operate with him or support him. Nor is it permissible for Muslims to co-operate with him. The wicked and vicious person may be our own brother, but he is not of us, and he can have no help or support from us as long as he does not repent and reform his ways
RIGHTS OF CITIZENS IN AN ISLAMIC STATE
We have discussed the human rights in general. Now we would like to take up the question of rights of the citizens in an Islamic State. As these rights are more extensive than the general human rights which have been described earlier, they need separate treatment.

1. The Security of Life and Property
In the address which the Prophet delivered on the occasion of the Farewell Hajj, he said: "Your lives and properties are forbidden to one another till you meet your Lord on the Day of Resurrection." God Almighty has laid down in the Holy Quran: "Anyone who kills a believer deliberately will receive as his reward (a sentence) to live in Hell for ever. God will be angry with him and curse him, and prepare dreadful torment for him" (4:93). The Prophet has also said about the dhimmis (the non-Muslim citizens of the Muslim State): "One who kills a man under covenant (i.e. a dhimmi) will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise" (al-Bukhari and Abu Dawud). Islam prohibits homicide but allows only one exception, that the killing is done in the due process of law which the Quran refers to as bi al-haqq (with the truth). Therefore a man can be killed only when the law demands it, and it is obvious that only a court of law can decide whether the execution is being carried out with justice or without justification. In case of war or insurrection a just and righteous government alone, which follows the Shari'ah or the Islamic Law, can decide whether a war is just or unjust, whether taking of a life is justified or not; and whether a person is a rebel or not and who can be sentenced to death as a punishment. These weighty decisions cannot be left in the hands of a court which has become heedless to God and is under the influence of the administra- tion. A judiciary like this may miscarry justice. Nor can the crimes of state be justified on the authority of the Holy Quran or Traditions (hadith) when the state murders its citizens openly and secretly without any hesitation or on the slightest pretext, because they are opposed to its unjust policies and actions or criticize it for its misdeed, and also provides protection to its hired assassins who have been guilty of the heinous crime of murder of an innocent person resulting in the fact, that neither the police take any action against such criminals nor can any proof or witnesses against these criminals be produced in the courts of law. The very existence of such a government is a crime and none of the killings carried out by them can be called "execution for the sake of justice" in the phraseology of the Holy Quran.
Along with security of life, Islam has with equal clarity and definiteness conferred the right of security of ownership of property, as mentioned earlier with reference to the address of the Farewell Hajj. On the other hand, the Holy Quran goes so far as to declare that the taking of people's possessions or property is completely prohibited unless they are acquired by lawful means as permitted in the Laws of God. The Law of God categorically declares "Do not devour one another's wealth by false and illegal means" (2:188).
Rest visit this site
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/M_hri/
in bible
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

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The Right to a Basic Standard of Life
Speaking about the economic rights the Holy Quran enjoins upon its followers:
And in their wealth there is acknowledged right for the needy and destitute. (51:19)
The words of this injunction show that it is a categorical and un- qualified order. Furthermore this injunction was given in Makkah where there was no Muslim society in existence and where generally the Muslims had to come in contact with the population of the disbelievers. Therefore the clear meaning of this verse is that anyone who asks for help and anyone who is suffering from deprivation has a right in the property and wealth of the Muslims; irrespective of the fact whether he belongs to this nation or to that nation, to this country or to that country, to this race or to that race. If you are in a position to help and a needy person asks you for help or if you come to know that he is in need, then it is your duty to help him. God has established his right over you, which you have to honour as a Muslim.
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Are non muslims considered sacred souls made that way by allah?

You can open your mouth regarding rights when you stop treating women like trash.
 
rtwngAvngr said:
You can open your mouth regarding rights when you stop treating women like trash.

Woman in Islam is a human and having her rights not for whoredom as in the western countries!!


Have you read the Bible my friend?
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law"

What a shame!!
"And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

"And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even."

What about the xxx-rated movie?
Whoredom, whore, adultry, breasts, virginity, and harlot words in the Bible and the victim is the woman by the order of Lord (!), see xxx-rated 1 woman facing many lovers:

37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

Sex on evry side:
22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

Sex with terror:
26 They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.

29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

46 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.

But what is the sin of the children?
47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

What about raping women?:
Jud 21:21 And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

No comment!!
 
Arabian said:
this is a quote a member sent to me and I just made it in a new third cause I think we will talk about something irrelevant from the main thread…
1st im not evil ,, u cant judge me cuz im just Arabian or Muslim,, by this u will lose human rights u are talking about,,,,,,
back to the main subject ,, you said that there is no human rights in Islam,, and I send you back this
Human rights in Islam I know its big but there are lots of human rights in Islam

Who are you trying to kid? No one who has been to the Middle East is going to swallow this load of crap.
 
Confident said:
Woman in Islam is a human and having her rights not for whoredom as in the western countries!!

Have you read the Bible my friend?
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law"

What a shame!!
"And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

"And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even."

What about the xxx-rated movie?
Whoredom, whore, adultry, breasts, virginity, and harlot words in the Bible and the victim is the woman by the order of Lord (!), see xxx-rated 1 woman facing many lovers:

37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

Sex on evry side:
22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

Sex with terror:
26 They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.

29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

46 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.

But what is the sin of the children?
47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

What about raping women?:
Jud 21:21 And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

No comment!!

Your stupid laws where women are concerned have nothing to do with equality, and very little to do with humanity.

It doesn't make a whore of someone to treat them with the basic dignity and respect all humans deserve until or unless they prove themselves unworthy.

Kinda' like YOU, nimrod.
 
GunnyL said:
Your stupid laws where women are concerned have nothing to do with equality, and very little to do with humanity.

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----------------------
Take it easy my friend!!
You didn't like reading those verses because they make you shy then angry!
If not, can you explain them?
---------
Do you know in some Muslim countries the President was a woman?
Do you think Americans will elect a woman as a president one day ?

The answer is:
Neither a Woman, nor a Black!!
-------------------------
 
Confident said:
----------------------
Take it easy my friend!!
You didn't like reading those verses because they make you shy then angry!
If not, can you explain them?
---------
Do you know in some Muslim countries the President was a woman?
Do you think Americans will elect a woman as a president one day ?

The answer is:
Neither woman, nor Black!!
-------------------------



If you truly have a beef with the whores of Babylon who have infiltrated the USA...please go to www.aclu.org/
scroll down to the bottom of the page...click on contact...and give em hell!
The ACLU are the ones trying to force the 'Whore of Babylon' down US citizens throats!
 
GunnyL said:
Your stupid laws where women are concerned have nothing to do with equality, and very little to do with humanity.

It doesn't make a whore of someone to treat them with the basic dignity and respect all humans deserve until or unless they prove themselves unworthy.

Kinda' like YOU, nimrod.
He was quoting the Bible, actually. But it was the King James version with archaic language. I wish I could understand the point he was trying to make.

I don't believe that all Muslims are evil. But Muslims must also understand that not all women in America/Western countries are whores. There are many, many men and women both who HATE xxx movies and the entire Hollywood culture. We speak out against these things. It is a daunting task against so much money and power.
 
Islam sucks.
After the Sept. 11 attacks, the U.S. government threw its full energies into combating terrorism emerging from militants in the Islamic world. But it has done little to expose and condemn the ways some states are using radical interpretations of Islamic law, or Shariah, to subordinate and exclude women. The U.S. should be equally concerned about the consequences of these interpretations on Muslims as well as non-Muslims.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002165
 
Confident said:
----------------------
Take it easy my friend!!
You didn't like reading those verses because they make you shy then angry!
If not, can you explain them?
---------
Do you know in some Muslim countries the President was a woman?
Do you think Americans will elect a woman as a president one day ?

The answer is:
Neither a Woman, nor a Black!!
-------------------------

Nice try, dweezel; however, you presume much that I would waste any emotion on the likes of you. I view you with about as much passion as I would a weasel in a henhouse.
 
Confident Have you read the Bible my friend? [/COLOR said:
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law"What a shame!!
"And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
I assume you are talking about the verse 1Timothy 2:12. We must always read the whole circumstances surrounding verses, and not quote them out of context. This is why I do not quote the Quran... I have never read the whole thing, and I do not understand the cultural references contained in it.

Is Paul commanding that all women always keep silent in church? If he is, then he is contradicting other parts of the Bible. Both men and women will prophesy (Joel 2:28). Many women were documented prophets, such as Philip's daughters (Acts21:9), and we even have women who were judges, like Deborah--- set in a position of authority over men and women. In the Bible, the word "prophesy" doesn't only mean a gift of foreknowledge; it can also mean "preaching."

We have to look at the context of this verse. Paul was writing to his young friend Timothy, whom he had put in charge of the church at Ephesus. The Ephesian women had never been allowed to learn in church before. Paul was opening up a whole new world to them! But they had so many questions. In this city, there were people, especially certain women, who were teaching strange gnostic heresies. The women in church were a)gnostic heretics trying to push their beliefs into the service, and b)uneducated women who didn't know what to believe, and were holding up the church services with many many questions. Paul referred these women to their husbands, who had the privelge of more education, so that teaching could go on in the time they were gathered.


"And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even."
Not sure which verse you are talking about here.

What about the xxx-rated movie?
Whoredom, whore, adultry, breasts, virginity, and harlot words in the Bible and the victim is the woman by the order of Lord (!), see xxx-rated 1 woman facing many lovers:

37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

Sex on evry side:
22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

Sex with terror:
26 They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.

29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

46 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.

But what is the sin of the children?
47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
I'd like to offer some sort of explanation here, but I need to know where these verses are coming from.

What about raping women?:
Jud 21:21 And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

No comment!! [/SIZE]
Well, since you gave the book, chapter, and verse, I can comment.

You have to go back two chapters. In chapter 19, a man was staying as a guest in the land of Benjamin. Some wicked men in the town surrounded the house and demanded that the guest be turned over to them so they could have sex with him. The house owner refused, and pushed out the guest's concubine. The wicked men raped and abused her all night, and she died in the morning. The guest then cut her body into twelve pieces and sent them to the tribes of Isreal as proof of the crime committed against her. You see, they certainly considered it WRONG to act that way. In fact, the next chapter shows the other tribes of Isreal going to war with the tribe of Benjamin and refusing to allow Benjaminaites to marry their daughters BECAUSE of this act.

Finally, we see the tribe of Benjamin dwindled to almost nothing, and the other Israelites began to have pity. They looked for wives for the remaining Benjaminite men so they could rebuild their population. So they murdered the people of Jabesh-gilead except the women who were virgins. But there still weren't enough wives. This brings us to verse 21, which you quoted.

In order to understand this passage, as well as many other passages in the Bible, you have to understand that this was not written as an example of how we SHOULD act, but rather, to demonstrate what depravity people will sink to if left to their own devices. The first verse in chapter 19 says, "In those days, Israel had no king." The last verse in the book of Judges (only 4 verses after the one you quoted) says, "In those days, Israel had no king, so the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes."

Jews and Christians alike know that "doing whatever seems right in our own eyes" is NOT a GOOD thing. We are to live in submission and obedience to God. The Old Testament gives many examples of depraved actions to illustrate how evil people can be if they do not submit to the Lord. The entire Old Testament points out the reason we need a Saviour: because every single person will at some time act AGAINST the Lord.
 
mom4 said:
I assume you are talking about the verse 1Timothy 2:12. We must always read the whole circumstances surrounding verses, and not quote them out of context. This is why I do not quote the Quran... I have never read the whole thing, and I do not understand the cultural references contained in it.

Is Paul commanding that all women always keep silent in church? If he is, then he is contradicting other parts of the Bible. Both men and women will prophesy (Joel 2:28). Many women were documented prophets, such as Philip's daughters (Acts21:9), and we even have women who were judges, like Deborah--- set in a position of authority over men and women. In the Bible, the word "prophesy" doesn't only mean a gift of foreknowledge; it can also mean "preaching."

We have to look at the context of this verse. Paul was writing to his young friend Timothy, whom he had put in charge of the church at Ephesus. The Ephesian women had never been allowed to learn in church before. Paul was opening up a whole new world to them! But they had so many questions. In this city, there were people, especially certain women, who were teaching strange gnostic heresies. The women in church were a)gnostic heretics trying to push their beliefs into the service, and b)uneducated women who didn't know what to believe, and were holding up the church services with many many questions. Paul referred these women to their husbands, who had the privelge of more education, so that teaching could go on in the time they were gathered.



Not sure which verse you are talking about here.


I'd like to offer some sort of explanation here, but I need to know where these verses are coming from.


Well, since you gave the book, chapter, and verse, I can comment.

You have to go back two chapters. In chapter 19, a man was staying as a guest in the land of Benjamin. Some wicked men in the town surrounded the house and demanded that the guest be turned over to them so they could have sex with him. The house owner refused, and pushed out the guest's concubine. The wicked men raped and abused her all night, and she died in the morning. The guest then cut her body into twelve pieces and sent them to the tribes of Isreal as proof of the crime committed against her. You see, they certainly considered it WRONG to act that way. In fact, the next chapter shows the other tribes of Isreal going to war with the tribe of Benjamin and refusing to allow Benjaminaites to marry their daughters BECAUSE of this act.

Finally, we see the tribe of Benjamin dwindled to almost nothing, and the other Israelites began to have pity. They looked for wives for the remaining Benjaminite men so they could rebuild their population. So they murdered the people of Jabesh-gilead except the women who were virgins. But there still weren't enough wives. This brings us to verse 21, which you quoted.

In order to understand this passage, as well as many other passages in the Bible, you have to understand that this was not written as an example of how we SHOULD act, but rather, to demonstrate what depravity people will sink to if left to their own devices. The first verse in chapter 19 says, "In those days, Israel had no king." The last verse in the book of Judges (only 4 verses after the one you quoted) says, "In those days, Israel had no king, so the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes."

Jews and Christians alike know that "doing whatever seems right in our own eyes" is NOT a GOOD thing. We are to live in submission and obedience to God. The Old Testament gives many examples of depraved actions to illustrate how evil people can be if they do not submit to the Lord. The entire Old Testament points out the reason we need a Saviour: because every single person will at some time act against the Lord.

It's hard for him to make clear statements since he generally has no clue what he's talking about. He quotes the Bible out of context or just outright dishonestly more than most atheists do.
 
GunnyL said:
It's hard for him to make clear statements since he generally has no clue what he's talking about. He quotes the Bible out of context or just outright dishonestly more than most atheists do.
But I feel sorry for him and Arabian (whom I believe is a woman). This is their faith, and it is dear to them. I understand how they feel attacked. And I can admire them for their ability to communicate in another language. I could not do the same. Even though I disagree with their statements, it seems to me like they are only trying to defend their faith.
 
mom4 said:
But I feel sorry for him and Arabian (whom I believe is a woman). This is their faith, and it is dear to them. I understand how they feel attacked. And I can admire them for their ability to communicate in another language. I could not do the same. Even though I disagree with their statements, it seems to me like they are only trying to defend their faith.

I have no problem with anyone defending their faith. I DO have a problem with them twisting the truth or fabricating their own to do so.
 
GunnyL said:
I have no problem with anyone defending their faith. I DO have a problem with them twisting the truth or fabricating their own to do so.
Yes, people do do that. Or maybe they are parroting verses they were told about, without actually having read the Bible themselves. But maybe not. :dunno:
 
Arabian said:
this is a quote a member sent to me and I just made it in a new third cause I think we will talk about something irrelevant from the main thread…
1st im not evil ,, u cant judge me cuz im just Arabian or Muslim,, by this u will lose human rights u are talking about,,,,,,
back to the main subject ,, you said that there is no human rights in Islam,, and I send you back this
Human rights in Islam I know its big but there are lots of human rights in Islam

Firstly, I made no claims or assertions in any way stating that there are no human rights in Islam - although I'd be hard pressed to believe that.

I'm not sure why you couldn't respond to my post in the original thread, but for those who do not know, this is what I was responding to:
Originally Posted by Arabian
Hi sir
Actually I can't accept your article head for lots of reasons it summarized in
I can make tomorrow a group and I will call it for the sake of Jesus and I will kill and rape and kidnap cuz in the bible 1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)"
and the church know nothing about this group
• Another thing its just group not a whole government,, not like the whole American came and killed and raped the Indian ,, and get them out from THEIR LANDS with no right
• Not like what happen in Guatemala from abuse and hurting the prisoners and treating them like animals ,, though as u assume that there something called human rights and even there is animal rights but there is no arab rights,, thought ur United Nation Organization doesn’t make differ between anykind of human or nation,, no different between white and black and Indian u had kill them all ,,
• What do you expect from people feel so injustice you made this kind of Muslim not the Islam nor other Muslims,,, you talked about rights and took their rights,, u talked about freedom and took their land from them, u……………… and took it from them ,, what do u expect not to repel even ,,
Its not Islam evil
Surah 2. The Cow
190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
,,, its Some Muslims maybe evil as there are Christian evil and Jewish evil and….. Evil cause they are all human and human could be evil ,,
And this evil we made by un-equality and injustice

From ur bible
KI1 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Then I responed with the following, which you have quoted in this thread as well:
You're evil. Last time I checked, Musliim theocracies were not a shinning example of "human rights". It's hardly a secret, but Muslim theocracies are utter failures when it comes to honouring basic human rights such as freedom of , religion, speach, association and so on - so much so that claiming otherwise would be a lie. That combined with the blatant aggressiveness and abuses inflicted on those who don't comply with the rules are just one example of their failures. Dependency on oil and rugs isn't good either, but that's a topic for another forum.

My post said that Muslim THEOCRACIES do not respect, or enforce basic human rights. Just look at your prisons, who are they filled with, why are many of them there and what happens to foreigners when arrested? Who makes and enforces the laws, where do the stem from?

Honestly, I could give a rats ass as to what the Koran SAYS, the abuses inficted upon people living within Muslim THEOCRACIES, namely women are sickening. To say anything to the contrary is a lie. You are fooling no one.
 
Confident said:
----------------------
Take it easy my friend!!
You didn't like reading those verses because they make you shy then angry!
If not, can you explain them?
---------
Do you know in some Muslim countries the President was a woman?
Do you think Americans will elect a woman as a president one day ?

The answer is:
Neither a Woman, nor a Black!!
-------------------------

Shouldn't you be throwing stones at some women neck deep in sand?
 
Said1 said:
Stoning is legal in Saudi Arabia. The more bruises the better.

Isn't Arab culture grand? I can't figure out how with their refusal to move their minds and bodies out of the 7th century how they haven't become extinct.

Of course, when it comes to modern conveniences for the wealthy few, that rule doesn't apply. Watching some dweeb in his bedsheets climb out of a brand new Mercedes is mind-boggling.
 

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