Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

Yet you God could not even do it for his son and even took his life.

I talk of that special love you see below.

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw


You may recall, I seldom follow links. My discussion is with you, not at a link.

No, Jesus did not take his life. He lived his life the way he felt it should be lived, even when he knew he was placing himself in a position where the more powerful could put him to death. There is a difference, and I am sure you understand it.

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?

Again, there is human sacrifice, and there are humans who sacrifice their lives. Again, I am certain you understand the difference. No man sacrificed Jesus. He was executed by men. Christ responded by offering his life, death, and obedience to God on behalf of mankind. As Paul phrased it, Adam brought disobedience into the world, but Christ brought obedience. What was out of alignment by disobedience was put back into alignment by obedience and we witnessed the victory obedience has over death.

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

If and when you say yes, you become his.

As I said before (and will keep saying until it sinks in), the Father did not punish the Son. Some sects of Christianity teach this, but the majority of Christians do not. I am one of the Christians who do not. The Father glorified the Son.

The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.

Now you are talking. Christ proclaimed repentance for the forgiveness of sins and pointed out that God wants mercy, not sacrifice.


It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning anddemanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Now you are back to what it seems some Christians may believe, especially those who follow the writings of Calvin. Calvin is not Christ, and more Christians do not believe Calvin than do. Further, you are distorting the writings and intent of Calvin, creating a version of your own and then arguing against your own version. In other words, you are arguing with no one but yourself. As a Catholic I do not mind spending time with you explaining what Catholics believe--which is greatly different from what Calvin taught. I am betting if you gave a follower of Calvin a chance, he/she could give you a better insight into Calvin's teachings and intent.


P.S. Your succeeding posts are not worthy of response. When you can converse without being overly insulting and hateful, I will be happy to exchange ideas with you. I am willing to give a little leeway, but I do have a clear personal line drawn in the sand when it comes to abusive posting. You crossed it. I will no more accept that then I would accept being a battered wife.
 
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That's not what I take away from his teachings. Of course, I read those teachings from the perspective of a Buddhist and I am sure that has an impact. I don't think the behavior Jesus was teaching was the point, but rather the vehicle by which one will grow. Loving God is not an end of itself, it is a process by which one can let go of ego and become God. Just not a fast process.

:) Yes, I recognize we have very different perspectives, but I am enjoying our exchange as we have a bit of common ground where we can stand and exchange the different views we are seeing. One area I cannot envision is becoming God. I have no wish at all to become God, but I certainly would like to be a trusted servant.
 
That's not what I take away from his teachings. Of course, I read those teachings from the perspective of a Buddhist and I am sure that has an impact. I don't think the behavior Jesus was teaching was the point, but rather the vehicle by which one will grow. Loving God is not an end of itself, it is a process by which one can let go of ego and become God. Just not a fast process.

:) Yes, I recognize we have very different perspectives, but I am enjoying our exchange as we have a bit of common ground where we can stand and exchange the different views we are seeing. One area I cannot envision is becoming God. I have no wish at all to become God, but I certainly would like to be a trusted servant.

We have very different views of God. For me, God is not a separate entity - it is everything. One does not please God, obey God or serve God. One matures until ready to become God. The image I have always found pleasing is a single rain drop falling to the ocean. It is unique and separate. But when it reaches the ocean it becomes the ocean. All that it was is still there, except for that which made it a drop. All of experience is merely the vehicle which allows us to shed that which makes us a drop.

Of course, I would be wrong.
 
SELF sacrifice.....(from a Calvinist, by the way, we don't teach it either)......

I would be interested in better understanding Calvinist teaching on this. Can you give me a quick summary?
not that complicated.....Jesus was God....God did not sacrifice some human for our sins......he sacrificed himself.....

Get the quote that says God can die please.

Regards
DL
won't work, as I recall you don't accept the New Testament.....therefore you will remain unconvinced.....

IOW, you cannot back up what you say.

Thanks for sharing your delusion.

Regards
DL
 
Yet you God could not even do it for his son and even took his life.

I talk of that special love you see below.

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw


You may recall, I seldom follow links. My discussion is with you, not at a link.

No, Jesus did not take his life. He lived his life the way he felt it should be lived, even when he knew he was placing himself in a position where the more powerful could put him to death. There is a difference, and I am sure you understand it.

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?

Again, there is human sacrifice, and there are humans who sacrifice their lives. Again, I am certain you understand the difference. No man sacrificed Jesus. He was executed by men. Christ responded by offering his life, death, and obedience to God on behalf of mankind. As Paul phrased it, Adam brought disobedience into the world, but Christ brought obedience. What was out of alignment by disobedience was put back into alignment by obedience and we witnessed the victory obedience has over death.

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

If and when you say yes, you become his.

As I said before (and will keep saying until it sinks in), the Father did not punish the Son. Some sects of Christianity teach this, but the majority of Christians do not. I am one of the Christians who do not. The Father glorified the Son.

The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.

Now you are talking. Christ proclaimed repentance for the forgiveness of sins and pointed out that God wants mercy, not sacrifice.


It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning anddemanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Now you are back to what it seems some Christians may believe, especially those who follow the writings of Calvin. Calvin is not Christ, and more Christians do not believe Calvin than do. Further, you are distorting the writings and intent of Calvin, creating a version of your own and then arguing against your own version. In other words, you are arguing with no one but yourself. As a Catholic I do not mind spending time with you explaining what Catholics believe--which is greatly different from what Calvin taught. I am betting if you gave a follower of Calvin a chance, he/she could give you a better insight into Calvin's teachings and intent.


P.S. Your succeeding posts are not worthy of response. When you can converse without being overly insulting and hateful, I will be happy to exchange ideas with you. I am willing to give a little leeway, but I do have a clear personal line drawn in the sand when it comes to abusive posting. You crossed it. I will no more accept that then I would accept being a battered wife.

I'd say it was a great deal Jesus made. If on my death bed I offered up, as you said "offering his life, death, and obedience to God on behalf of mankind" I'm going to make that deal too when I'm on my death bed. If it means people will be talking about me 2015 years later sign me up!
 
And don't get us atheists wrong. Jesus sounded like a great guy. I don't know about worshiping him but he sounded like a really great guy. Have you ever met anyone that good in real life? I know a few people who are that kind of wonderful. Worship them. If there is a god he will reward you for doing that.
 
SELF sacrifice.....(from a Calvinist, by the way, we don't teach it either)......

I would be interested in better understanding Calvinist teaching on this. Can you give me a quick summary?
not that complicated.....Jesus was God....God did not sacrifice some human for our sins......he sacrificed himself.....

Get the quote that says God can die please.

Regards
DL
won't work, as I recall you don't accept the New Testament.....therefore you will remain unconvinced.....

IOW, you cannot back up what you say.

Thanks for sharing your delusion.

Regards
DL
this from the guy who ignores the entire NT and then claims it says nothing.......
 

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