Christian Socialism

[Agnapostate]

When we examine Scripture, it can certainly be noted that Jesus promoted some variety of egalitarianism, and the Bible generally prohibited many practices which function as standard capitalist business practices today (i.e. usury).

But perhaps most importantly, we can note that a specific endorsement of libertarian communism as a Christian lifestyle comes from the book of the Acts of the Apostles, which should obviously better be called the Acts of the Holy Spirit through the apostles, as the apostles could not act were the power of God not in them. I noted both Acts 2:44-35, where it is written, "Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need," as well as Acts 4:32, which states "Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common."

With this in mind, how can we conclude anything other than that Falwell, Robertson and others who supported the expansion of neoliberalism under the regimes of Reagan and Thatcher are acting primarily in the service of the flesh rather than in the service of the Lord? One cannot serve both God and mammon, and while it has been a tendency to condemn specific individuals that acted contrary to that principle in their own personal dealings (i.e. Jimmy Swaggart), it may also be enlightening to examine the ideological principles of men claiming to act in the service of God but only serve to uphold regimes that promote actions contrary to Biblical principles.

Moreover, Christians can reasonably oppose authoritarian forms of Marxism, in that they promote state atheism and state capitalism, and Marxism's anti-religious element directly descended from Feuerbach, but we must also examine whether it would be acting in the Lord's will to promote libertarian forms of socialism or more humane forms of socialism affiliated with the liberation theology movement.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What?

Reagan and Thatcher promoted liberalism?

 

[Agnapostate]

They promoted neoliberalism, which is an expansion of the economic theories of classical liberalism (which is erroneously called "libertarianism" today.

 

[Diuretic]

Surface Christianity, the veneer without depth. The tele-evangelists for the most part - I'm willing to give Schuller a break - are materialists, they're in it for the money. But I'm not going to lel the Vatican off easy, have you seen their stuff????

I suppose Christianity has come a long way from its origins. A long time ago, probably Constantine, it became entertwined with secular power and authority and one reinforced the other to their own benefit.

 

[Agnapostate]

But I'm not going to lel the Vatican off easy, have you seen their stuff????

One of the most critical things noted by Bill Maher in Religulous was the fact that Jesus would likely disapprove of the ornate and sophisticated nature of the Vatican and other elaborate churches and temples, and would likely have more sympathy for the surrounding slums.

 

[Diuretic]

Very probably. I have to tell you my mouth fell open when I was inside St Peter's I just couldn't believe what I was seeing . And I suppose, like a museum, you only get to see a small portion of the total holdings.

 

[Sky Dancer]

They promoted neoliberalism, which is an expansion of the economic theories of classical liberalism (which is erroneously called "libertarianism" today.

Thanks for clarifying that. Reagan and Thatcher were not liberals.

Anti-union, free market and free trade are classic conservative Republican positions. The conservative Republican party is the party of corporations, tax breaks for the wealthy and big business greed.

 

[Agnapostate]

Thanks for clarifying that. Reagan and Thatcher were not liberals.

Small government, free market and free trade are classic conservative Republican positions.

Small government is a classic conservative position, but it hasn't been a Republican position since the hijacking of the GOP by the Christian Right and the neocon interventionists, in my opinion.

 

[Sky Dancer]

By pairing the classical big business/corporate greed model with socially regressive, conservatve evangelical religous base, the Republicans tricked poor people into signing on with them.

 

[Diuretic]

Terminology issue. What Americans call "liberals" the rest of us in the west call "left" or "centre left". In economics "liberal" is somewhat aligned to "laissez-faire". Because Americans have conflated "liberal" with "left" there had to be a new word for them and so "libertarian" was borrowed from the Anarchists. It's very confusing.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Christian Socialism

Its fixed principle:

The community shall ultimately own the means of production (that is, the land and capital) collectively and use them co-operatively for the good of all.
Christian Socialism


How does this reflect Thatcher and Reagan Agnapostate?

 

[Agnapostate]

Terminology issue. What Americans call "liberals" the rest of us in the west call "left" or "centre left". In economics "liberal" is somewhat aligned to "laissez-faire". Because Americans have conflated "liberal" with "left" there had to be a new word for them and so "libertarian" was borrowed from the Anarchists. It's very confusing.

Stolen, rather.

And now they deny that anarchists (who are necessarily socialists in their legitimate form) are libertarians, despite the fact that the word was first used in print by the French anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque. What's worse, "anarcho"-capitalists of the Murray Rothbard breed are beginning to encroach on other leftist territory by attempting to claim the term "anarchist" for themselves.

 

[Diuretic]

By pairing the classical big business/corporate greed model with socially regressive, conservatve evangelical religous base, the Republicans tricked poor people into signing on with them.

Worse, they told the ordinary worker that their interests coincided with the wealthy. I'm not sure but that may have started wth Gompers, but as I said, not sure.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Terminology issue. What Americans call "liberals" the rest of us in the west call "left" or "centre left". In economics "liberal" is somewhat aligned to "laissez-faire". Because Americans have conflated "liberal" with "left" there had to be a new word for them and so "libertarian" was borrowed from the Anarchists. It's very confusing.

Thanks for pointing that out. It is confusing. Especially when the only identified Anarchist starts the topic this way.

Good idea to clarify the terms.

 

[Diuretic]

Stolen, rather.

And now they deny that anarchists (who are necessarily socialists in their legitimate form) are libertarians, despite the fact that the word was first used in print by the French anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque. What's worse, "anarcho"-capitalists of the Murray Rothbard breed are beginning to encroach on other leftist territory by attempting to claim the term "anarchist" for themselves.

Misappropriated

Quite right too - I must admit when I read a little about Rothbard I thought he had a bloody cheek pinching the name

 

[Agnapostate]

Christian Socialism

Its fixed principle:

The community shall ultimately own the means of production (that is, the land and capital) collectively and use them co-operatively for the good of all.
Christian Socialism


How does this reflect Thatcher and Reagan Agnapostate?

The point was that Reagan and Thatcher promoted neoliberal expansion, and were largely supported by the Christian Right, which was constituted by such groups as the "Moral" Majority and the "Christian" Coalition, and their respective leaders, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. My argument is that this was a contradiction of Biblical principles regarding egalitarianism.

 

[Sky Dancer]

By pairing the classical big business/corporate greed model with socially regressive, conservatve evangelical religous base, the Republicans tricked poor people into signing on with them.

Worse, they told the ordinary worker that their interests coincided with the wealthy. I'm not sure but that may have started wth Gompers, but as I said, not sure.

Exactly. Smoke and mirrors or sleight of hand but many bought it hook, line and sinker.

 

[Diuretic]

Thanks for pointing that out. It is confusing. Especially when the only identified Anarchist starts the topic this way.

Good idea to clarify the terms.

You're welcome. Since this is a US MB and not a WW MB I try to keep within the terminology use expected of posters (occasionally I forget or am a bit stroppy though ).

I feel a bit for Anarchists though, "anarchy" and "anarchism" are two different concepts but so easily to plait together.

I think I've anarchised the thread now

 

[Sky Dancer]

Christian Socialism

Its fixed principle:

The community shall ultimately own the means of production (that is, the land and capital) collectively and use them co-operatively for the good of all.
Christian Socialism


How does this reflect Thatcher and Reagan Agnapostate?

The point was that Reagan and Thatcher promoted neoliberal expansion, and were largely supported by the Christian Right, which was constituted by such groups as the "Moral" Majority and the "Christian" Coalition, and their respective leaders, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. My argument is that this was a contradiction of Biblical principles regarding egalitarianism.

According to the definition of Christian Socialism that I provided, Falwell and Robertson, the Moral Majority, Christian Coalition, Reagan and Thatcher contradicted Christian priinciples of egalitarianism.

I agree with your opening premise.

 

[Diuretic]

Good thread save

Above the Great West Door of Westminster Abbey are arrayed ten great statues of the martyrs of the Church. Not Peter, Stephen, James or the familiar names of the saints sacrificed during the great Roman persecution before Constantine's conversion. No: these are martyrs of the twentieth century, when the age of faith was, in the minds of many in the West, already tottering towards its collapse.

One of those honoured above the Great West Door is Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the German theologian, pastor and peace activist. Bonhoeffer is, without doubt, the man I admire most in the history of the twentieth century. He was a man of faith. He was a man of reason. He was a man of letters who was as well read in history and literature as he was in the intensely academic Lutheran theology of the German university tradition. He was never a nationalist, always an internationalist. And above all, he was a man of action who wrote prophetically in 1937 that "when Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die." For Bonhoeffer, whatever the personal cost, there was no moral alternative other than to fight the Nazi state with whatever weapons were at his disposal.

Faith in Politics | The Monthly

Kevn Rudd, our PM, has an interest in Christian Socialism