Christian Cabinet Minister gunned down in Pakistan

[Kalam]

I don't hate you. I quite dislike the interpretations of Islam and I fear the extensions of Militant Islam towards the West and Israel.

I see you applying softness to the acts of Muslims when posted on this forum. I see you divert posts on the subject with out of context questions about how others would feel about the events if those events were applied to yet other events, etc.

Then we're off on those other events.

I think your belief is backwards and in need of reformist interpretations. You do not. We are diametrically opposed in this.

I do not think Islam is inherently evil. I have told you that many times. I do think that the interpretations have been taken to evil propositions.

I'll point this kind of thing out when I see it and it's all over the world. What I won't do is argue semantics and scriptural positions.

Shahbaz Bhatti (a Christian Moderate) is dead.

​

I do not accept sentimentality disclaimers. Reasons notwithstanding.

I don't see the purpose of discussing current events without considering the ideological motivations that seem to underlie them. You argue that the followers of Islam are perpetually engaged in 'border wars' that are subject to 'ebb' and 'flow', but what use is there in discussing the behavior of an entire religious community if you insist on divorcing their actions from their professed beliefs?

Every action of a person that isn't purely reflexive has its impetus in some sort of belief. If we insist that discussions of beliefs and scripture and things that you associate with the philosophical realm are useless, our understanding of events is one-dimensional.

I'd like to add that obfuscation and all of the other -tions are never goals of mine when I post here. Most or many of my posts have to do with my posts have something to do with my religion's teachings and I must approach that type of discussion with total honesty. If your perception is that I'm failing to do so please let me know.

 

[Ropey]

I feel sorry for the law abiding honest Pakistanis that have to live with scum like the Taliban running Pakistan.

It's not a simple thing. Moderates are moderate and fall to extremism due to fear. I see little to no chance in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

We know what the Madrassas are teaching and we are allowing it to occur due to fear.

Madrassas in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, the extremists get stronger. Political correctness has stopped reality from setting in until the next attack on Western Philosophical soil.

All talbanism which is happening in Pakistan is because of Qutubi ideology .Jamaat Islami played the main role promoting terrorism and hatred .The Madaris started 50 years ago was not intend to get the power in the country ,Deoband Ulema like Ashraf Ali Thanwi ,Shabir Ahmed Usmani ,Qasim Nanatwi or Mufi Muhammad Shafi had different concepts then Todays deobandis like Taliban ,And this is because of the Jamaat Islami ideology which was injected in Deoband Madaris during Afghan war .Now Deobani Madaris and Jamaat islami has become one ideology ,Thats why Munwer hasan says “Ham aur Taliban aik hi hain ”
Shamir Ahmed Usmani worked with Qaid-e-azam ,Muti-e-Azam pakistan never asked Khilafat aur aur Mulla government in Pakistan .
Jamaat Islami members is very few in numbers but they have managed to inject their virus in all Pakistani nation .

I have a magazine called “terjuman-ul-Quran ” from Jamat Islami and I find ninety percent topics are hatred and on “amrika “.

Jihadi public schools? ? by Ali K Chishti*|*Let Us Build Pakistan

It's not as though moderates are not telling us. It is that the leadership is not listening and relating it and the media is unwilling to touch such a thing.

Which leadership are you referring to Ropey?

The leadership in Pakistan. Those who could actually do something. They do not listen to their moderates. They listen to the ones that produce violent acts and who terrorize them. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Now some peaceful demonstrations by moderates in Pakistan are countered by violence to the point of targeting assassinations against them.

Now some peaceful demonstrations by moderates in Pakistan are countered by violence to the point of targeting assassinations against them.

If your perception is that I'm failing to do so please let me know.

I believe that you are clearly failing. You are not gaining support and points. I don't mean rep points. I mean discussion points. Oh, yes, you succeed in putting a point across that disavows Muslim responsibly for their world wide acts of terror and violence. But that doesn't really cut much ice here in the West.

If you do not see that, then I can't help you. If you need me to tell you that you are not getting your points across with such responses of minimization and misdirection then I doubt I can help you.

I will continue to point out the acts that occur on the ground. And so you can continue to explain how poor Muslims are being treated so wrongly that jihad is the only method to deal with being so victimized.

And off these poor misunderstood and mistreated Muslims go to kill more.

 

[adeel_sami]

Where public becomes the judge and verdicts upon their own assumptions, those countries are no different than Pakistan.

 

[idb]

It's not a simple thing. Moderates are moderate and fall to extremism due to fear. I see little to no chance in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

We know what the Madrassas are teaching and we are allowing it to occur due to fear.

Madrassas in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, the extremists get stronger. Political correctness has stopped reality from setting in until the next attack on Western Philosophical soil.



Jihadi public schools? ? by Ali K Chishti*|*Let Us Build Pakistan

It's not as though moderates are not telling us. It is that the leadership is not listening and relating it and the media is unwilling to touch such a thing.

Which leadership are you referring to Ropey?

The leadership in Pakistan. Those who could actually do something. They do not listen to their moderates. They listen to the ones that produce violent acts and who terrorize them. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Now some peaceful demonstrations by moderates in Pakistan are countered by violence to the point of targeting assassinations against them.

Now some peaceful demonstrations by moderates in Pakistan are countered by violence to the point of targeting assassinations against them.

If your perception is that I'm failing to do so please let me know.

I believe that you are clearly failing. You are not gaining support and points. I don't mean rep points. I mean discussion points. Oh, yes, you succeed in putting a point across that disavows Muslim responsibly for their world wide acts of terror and violence. But that doesn't really cut much ice here in the West.

If you do not see that, then I can't help you. If you need me to tell you that you are not getting your points across with such responses of minimization and misdirection then I doubt I can help you.

I will continue to point out the acts that occur on the ground. And so you can continue to explain how poor Muslims are being treated so wrongly that jihad is the only method to deal with being so victimized.

And off these poor misunderstood and mistreated Muslims go to kill more.

It's only other Muslims that can sort out the extremists.
The West will never be able to stop them without the backing of the global Islamic community.

 

[High_Gravity]

Where public becomes the judge and verdicts upon their own assumptions, those countries are no different than Pakistan.

Good point Adeel.

 

[Ropey]

Where public becomes the judge and verdicts upon their own assumptions, those countries are no different than Pakistan.

Good point Adeel.

So, they should be killed for protesting?

 

[High_Gravity]

Where public becomes the judge and verdicts upon their own assumptions, those countries are no different than Pakistan.

Good point Adeel.

So, they should be killed for protesting?

No I don't agree, I think I mis-understood his post.

 

[Ropey]

Which leadership are you referring to Ropey?

The leadership in Pakistan. Those who could actually do something. They do not listen to their moderates. They listen to the ones that produce violent acts and who terrorize them. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Now some peaceful demonstrations by moderates in Pakistan are countered by violence to the point of targeting assassinations against them.

Now some peaceful demonstrations by moderates in Pakistan are countered by violence to the point of targeting assassinations against them.

If your perception is that I'm failing to do so please let me know.

I believe that you are clearly failing. You are not gaining support and points. I don't mean rep points. I mean discussion points. Oh, yes, you succeed in putting a point across that disavows Muslim responsibly for their world wide acts of terror and violence. But that doesn't really cut much ice here in the West.

If you do not see that, then I can't help you. If you need me to tell you that you are not getting your points across with such responses of minimization and misdirection then I doubt I can help you.

I will continue to point out the acts that occur on the ground. And so you can continue to explain how poor Muslims are being treated so wrongly that jihad is the only method to deal with being so victimized.

And off these poor misunderstood and mistreated Muslims go to kill more.

It's only other Muslims that can sort out the extremists.
The West will never be able to stop them without the backing of the global Islamic community.

So, what's your solution?

Good point Adeel.

So, they should be killed for protesting?

No I don't agree, I think I mis-understood his post.

I might have misunderstood myself HG.

ISI sanctioned targeted assassinations of moderates who gain higher office is not the pattern of the countries that it seems Adeel is attempting to compare.

It is not the public that is targeting the assassinations. It is the extremist leadership. That's why they are not listening. When I said the leaders are not listening it is because they do not want to hear moderation as they are not moderates.

Adeel puts the acts of targeted assassinations on the back of the citizenry. I disagree.