Chomsky: The Arab World is on Fire

[georgephillip]

It seems like any new Democracies in the Middle East will be top-down in structure, at least for the first generation. I'm not sure how that will play out with the large numbers of young, secular and educated Arabs who see taking control of their own natural resources as a primary objective.

Economic class seems to be a driving force in recent uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt and Madison. If class war goes viral across the US and the globe, those of us still alive in 10-20 years might look back on today's US political leaders and see fanatics.

If the class war ever makes it to Russia, I don't expect to live long enough to see it. It's always seemed to me that a North American Economic Union consisting of Mexico, the US and Canada allied with Russia would be an effective counterbalance to India and China, but I doubt very much the gangsters running the former four countries are willing to share.

There wont be any new Democracies in the middle east.

Top down structures arent representative.

The composition of the new governments will depend on the religious and political groups that eventually take control, if you ask me I think that these new democracies will eventually be semi-democracies (like Iraqi with it's Sharia Law constitution). But some revolutions obviously will just collapse and be taken over by a military dictator in the end, just like in previous regime changes in the middle east.

Do you think it's likely western powers (US and UK) will have the same influence across the Middle East as they have had in the past?

What about pan-Arabism?

A Semitic union (including Israel) stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates?

 

[westwall]

"'The Arab world is on fire,' al-Jazeera reported on Jan. 27, while throughout the region, Western allies 'are quickly losing their influence.'

"The shock wave was set in motion by the dramatic uprising in Tunisia that drove out a Western-backed dictator, with reverberations especially in Egypt, where demonstrators overwhelmed a dictator’s brutal police...

"The vibrant democracy movement in Tunisia was directed against 'a police state, with little freedom of expression or association, and serious human rights problems,' ruled by a dictator whose family was hated for their venality.

"This was the assessment by U.S. Ambassador Robert Godec in a July 2009 cable released by WikiLeaks.

Chomsky's op-ed then reveals how Washington provided $12 million in military aid to Tunisia and how there has long been a gap in the Arab world between what the masses believe and what Arab elites profess in public:

"Unmentioned is what the population thinks – easily discovered.

"According to polls released by the Brookings Institution in August, some Arabs agree with Washington and Western commentators that Iran is a threat: 10 percent.

"In contrast, they regard the U.S. and Israel as the major threats (77 percent; 88 percent).

"Arab opinion is so hostile to Washington’s policies that a majority (57 percent) think regional security would be enhanced if Iran had nuclear weapons...

"The dictators support us. Their subjects can be ignored – unless they break their chains, and then policy must be adjusted."

Arab chains have broken in Tunesia.
Are breaking in Egypt...
If Saudi chains are next?

Good ol Chomsky. Who beleives that war in all cases is bad. Unless of course your fighting against the united states or trying to premote religious extreamism or socialism. Then he is fine with it.

"Chomsky was voted the leading living public intellectual in The 2005 Global Intellectuals Poll conducted by the British magazine Prospect. He reacted, saying 'I don't pay a lot of attention to polls'.[116]

"In a list compiled by the magazine New Statesman in 2006, he was voted seventh in the list of 'Heroes of our time'".

Chomsky - Wiki

It is widely believed he's the eighth most widely quoted author of all time. The only living writer on a top ten list that starts with the Bible.

Shakespeare, Freud, Marx, Chaucer, Cicero...Chomsky...

Can you tell me when he has supported wars of religious extremism?

Yeah Chomsky was a great supporter of the Khmer Rouge, you remember them don't you? Killed a large portion of their population seeking a wonderful agrarian utopia? Please forgive me if I think old Noam is a dipshit. I could care less what he says or what others say of him. He supported genocide...that's enough for thinking people.

 

[Bosun]

Yeah, it has been on fire for about 1400 years, already. color me surprised on this one..... Lan astaslem, استسلم لن *

 

[Bosun]

Yeah, it has been on fire for about 1400 years, already. color me surprised on this one.....

an old proverb from the Arabian Peninsula

The Camel's Nose In The Tent

One cold night, as an Arab sat in his tent, a camel gently thrust his nose under the flap and looked in. "Master," he said, "let me put my nose in your tent. It's cold and stormy out here." "By all means," said the Arab, "and welcome" as he turned over and went to sleep.
A little later the Arab awoke to find that the camel had not only put his nose in the tent but his head and neck also. The camel, who had been turning his head from side to side, said, "I will take but little more room if I place my forelegs within the tent. It is difficult standing out here." "Yes, you may put your forelegs within," said the Arab, moving a little to make room, for the tent was small.

Finally, the camel said, "May I not stand wholly inside? I keep the tent open by standing as I do." "Yes, yes," said the Arab. "Come wholly inside. Perhaps it will be better for both of us." So the camel crowded in. The Arab with difficulty in the crowded quarters again went to sleep. When he woke up the next time, he was outside in the cold and the camel had the tent to himself.

 

[waltky]

Will it spread to Saudi Arabia?...

In Saudi Arabia, reformers intensify calls for change
February 22, 2011 - King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz is due to return tomorrow after three months away to a country where reformers inspired by Egypt are calling for greater transparency and equality.

When his royal jet lands here in the Saudi capital on Wednesday, ending a three-month absence, King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz will find a nation seemingly moored in the eye of the epic storm howling around it. But it is also clear that the octogenarian king, who went to New York in late November for back surgery and then to Morocco to convalesce, is returning to a realm touched in significant ways by the youth rebellions roiling the Middle East.

More than ever before, Saudis are openly calling for change, including political reforms. The most vociferous are tech-savvy youths who have obsessively followed their peers’ historic movements, especially in Egypt, on Twitter and Facebook. True, King Abdullah – whose oil-rich coffers provide the country with generous benefits and material development – is genuinely liked by most of his subjects. And the government is shielded by a religious culture in which rebellion is deemed illicit and public street protest considered gauche.

But those agitating for change have made the Internet their virtual Tahrir Square, with locations like #EgyEffectSA on Twitter acting as a public forum for how they see Egypt affecting Saudi Arabia.

Demands include women's vote, younger leaders

 

[Bosun]

the chickens will come home to roost.

 

[Bosun]

The chickens will come home to roost.

HANDY REFERENCES TO THE QUR'AN
* verses which preach cruelty, incite violence and disturb public tranquility (i.e., 2:193; 8:39; 2:216; 9:41; 9:123; 66:9; 9:73; 8:65; 8:66; 47:4—15; 8:12; 69:30—33; 8:15—18; 25:52; 9:39; 9:111; 3: 169—171; 4:100; 48:29; 49:15; 2:154; 3:157—158; 8:59—60; 9:2—3; 9:29; 8:67; 4:84; 29:6; 29:69; 61:9—13; 9:36; 9:5; 9:14; 9:20—22; 4:95—96; 8:72—74; 3:142)

* verses which promote, on grounds of religion, feelings of enmity, hatred and ill-will between different religious communities (i.e., 4:101; 60:4; 58:23; 9:7; 8:13—14; 8:55; 25:55; 5:72; 9:23; 9:28; 3:28; 3:118; 4:144; 5:14; 5:64; 5:18; 5:51)

* verses which insult other religions as well as the religious beliefs of other communities (i.e., 5:17; 4:157; 5:116—118; 98:6; 68:8—13; 38:55—57; 22:19—21; 22:56—57; 5:36; 15:2; 72:14—15;41:33; 4:125; 25:27—29; 26:96—99; 3:85; 8:38; 31:13; 29:41—42; 37:22—25; 37:26—32; 25:17—19; 7:173; 21:66—67; 21:98—100; 16:20—21; 6:22—23; 6:40—41; 6:148; 2;221; 24:3)

not all followers of muhammad (pbuh) are radical. only the radicals are radical.

Remember Fitnah is better than Fitrah.... Lan astaslem, لن استسلم*

PS: I am not a follower of Chompsky.

 

[ekrem]

Do you think it's likely western powers (US and UK) will have the same influence across the Middle East as they have had in the past?
(...)

The UK plays in the shadow of the USA.
The USA has lost the power to change anything in the region.
Within America the Americans will play partisan blackmailing, but independent from who rules the USA, the USA will never again reach a position to enforce an order over this region.

We are witnessing good times.

 

[B. Kidd]

Do you think it's likely western powers (US and UK) will have the same influence across the Middle East as they have had in the past?
(...)

The UK plays in the shadow of the USA.
The USA has lost the power to change anything in the region.
Within America the Americans will play partisan blackmailing, but independent from who rules the USA, the USA will never again reach a position to enforce an order over this region.

We are witnessing good times.

Just as well. The USA needs to get back to nation building........re-building our own nation and developing domestic oil. Now, only if our leaders could figure this out.

 

[georgephillip]

Good ol Chomsky. Who beleives that war in all cases is bad. Unless of course your fighting against the united states or trying to premote religious extreamism or socialism. Then he is fine with it.

"Chomsky was voted the leading living public intellectual in The 2005 Global Intellectuals Poll conducted by the British magazine Prospect. He reacted, saying 'I don't pay a lot of attention to polls'.[116]

"In a list compiled by the magazine New Statesman in 2006, he was voted seventh in the list of 'Heroes of our time'".

Chomsky - Wiki

It is widely believed he's the eighth most widely quoted author of all time. The only living writer on a top ten list that starts with the Bible.

Shakespeare, Freud, Marx, Chaucer, Cicero...Chomsky...

Can you tell me when he has supported wars of religious extremism?

Yeah Chomsky was a great supporter of the Khmer Rouge, you remember them don't you? Killed a large portion of their population seeking a wonderful agrarian utopia? Please forgive me if I think old Noam is a dipshit. I could care less what he says or what others say of him. He supported genocide...that's enough for thinking people.

Do you remember Dick and Henry?

"Between March 1969 and May 1970, Kissinger ordered some 3,600 B 52 bombing raids on Cambodia. Kissinger later lied to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee saying he had selected only 'unpopulated' areas of Cambodia for bombing.

"Somehow, between 600,000 to 800,000 civilians died in these 'unpopulated' areas. This carnage occurred before Pol Pot won power.

"Refugees from the bombing abounded; others left because of poisonous herbicides dropped by U.S. military aircraft. Neither Vietnamese nor Cambodians have recovered from this toxic side of the 'the American War.'"

Chomsky does.

And he also remembers how the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Cambodians by the US helped Pol Pot come to power.

Do you even care?

Saul Landau...

 

[georgephillip]

Will it spread to Saudi Arabia?...

In Saudi Arabia, reformers intensify calls for change
February 22, 2011 - King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz is due to return tomorrow after three months away to a country where reformers inspired by Egypt are calling for greater transparency and equality.

When his royal jet lands here in the Saudi capital on Wednesday, ending a three-month absence, King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz will find a nation seemingly moored in the eye of the epic storm howling around it. But it is also clear that the octogenarian king, who went to New York in late November for back surgery and then to Morocco to convalesce, is returning to a realm touched in significant ways by the youth rebellions roiling the Middle East.

More than ever before, Saudis are openly calling for change, including political reforms. The most vociferous are tech-savvy youths who have obsessively followed their peers’ historic movements, especially in Egypt, on Twitter and Facebook. True, King Abdullah – whose oil-rich coffers provide the country with generous benefits and material development – is genuinely liked by most of his subjects. And the government is shielded by a religious culture in which rebellion is deemed illicit and public street protest considered gauche.

But those agitating for change have made the Internet their virtual Tahrir Square, with locations like #EgyEffectSA on Twitter acting as a public forum for how they see Egypt affecting Saudi Arabia.

Demands include women's vote, younger leaders

If one month from now Saudi is coming apart the way Libya is today, do you see the 101st Airborne getting involved in the fight?

 

[Ropey]

"'the arab world is on fire,' al-jazeera reported on jan. 27, while throughout the region, western allies 'are quickly losing their influence.'

"the shock wave was set in motion by the dramatic uprising in tunisia that drove out a western-backed dictator, with reverberations especially in egypt, where demonstrators overwhelmed a dictator’s brutal police...

"the vibrant democracy movement in tunisia was directed against 'a police state, with little freedom of expression or association, and serious human rights problems,' ruled by a dictator whose family was hated for their venality.

"this was the assessment by u.s. Ambassador robert godec in a july 2009 cable released by wikileaks.

Chomsky's op-ed then reveals how washington provided $12 million in military aid to tunisia and how there has long been a gap in the arab world between what the masses believe and what arab elites profess in public:

"unmentioned is what the population thinks – easily discovered.

"according to polls released by the brookings institution in august, some arabs agree with washington and western commentators that iran is a threat: 10 percent.

"in contrast, they regard the u.s. And israel as the major threats (77 percent; 88 percent).

"arab opinion is so hostile to washington’s policies that a majority (57 percent) think regional security would be enhanced if iran had nuclear weapons...

"the dictators support us. Their subjects can be ignored – unless they break their chains, and then policy must be adjusted."

arab chains have broken in tunesia.
Are breaking in egypt...
If saudi chains are next?

good ol chomsky. Who beleives that war in all cases is bad. Unless of course your fighting against the united states or trying to premote religious extreamism or socialism. Then he is fine with it.

qft

 

[High_Gravity]

Will it spread to Saudi Arabia?...

In Saudi Arabia, reformers intensify calls for change
February 22, 2011 - King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz is due to return tomorrow after three months away to a country where reformers inspired by Egypt are calling for greater transparency and equality.

When his royal jet lands here in the Saudi capital on Wednesday, ending a three-month absence, King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz will find a nation seemingly moored in the eye of the epic storm howling around it. But it is also clear that the octogenarian king, who went to New York in late November for back surgery and then to Morocco to convalesce, is returning to a realm touched in significant ways by the youth rebellions roiling the Middle East.

More than ever before, Saudis are openly calling for change, including political reforms. The most vociferous are tech-savvy youths who have obsessively followed their peers’ historic movements, especially in Egypt, on Twitter and Facebook. True, King Abdullah – whose oil-rich coffers provide the country with generous benefits and material development – is genuinely liked by most of his subjects. And the government is shielded by a religious culture in which rebellion is deemed illicit and public street protest considered gauche.

But those agitating for change have made the Internet their virtual Tahrir Square, with locations like #EgyEffectSA on Twitter acting as a public forum for how they see Egypt affecting Saudi Arabia.

Demands include women's vote, younger leaders

If one month from now Saudi is coming apart the way Libya is today, do you see the 101st Airborne getting involved in the fight?

No.

 

[westwall]

"Chomsky was voted the leading living public intellectual in The 2005 Global Intellectuals Poll conducted by the British magazine Prospect. He reacted, saying 'I don't pay a lot of attention to polls'.[116]

"In a list compiled by the magazine New Statesman in 2006, he was voted seventh in the list of 'Heroes of our time'".

Chomsky - Wiki

It is widely believed he's the eighth most widely quoted author of all time. The only living writer on a top ten list that starts with the Bible.

Shakespeare, Freud, Marx, Chaucer, Cicero...Chomsky...

Can you tell me when he has supported wars of religious extremism?

Yeah Chomsky was a great supporter of the Khmer Rouge, you remember them don't you? Killed a large portion of their population seeking a wonderful agrarian utopia? Please forgive me if I think old Noam is a dipshit. I could care less what he says or what others say of him. He supported genocide...that's enough for thinking people.

Do you remember Dick and Henry?

"Between March 1969 and May 1970, Kissinger ordered some 3,600 B 52 bombing raids on Cambodia. Kissinger later lied to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee saying he had selected only 'unpopulated' areas of Cambodia for bombing.

"Somehow, between 600,000 to 800,000 civilians died in these 'unpopulated' areas. This carnage occurred before Pol Pot won power.

"Refugees from the bombing abounded; others left because of poisonous herbicides dropped by U.S. military aircraft. Neither Vietnamese nor Cambodians have recovered from this toxic side of the 'the American War.'"

Chomsky does.

And he also remembers how the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Cambodians by the US helped Pol Pot come to power.

Do you even care?

Saul Landau...

The US had no part in the Khmer Rouge coming to power. The only thing the US did wrong was ignore the Pol Pot regime when it got started. There are many scholarly studies that show the US had no part in the rise of the Khmer Rouge and plenty that show Chomsky was an ardent supporter of them, so nice try with your apologist propaganda but propaganda is all it is.


Here is just one of MANY.

http://jim.com/canon.htm

 

[High_Gravity]

The US is to blame for pol pot now? Jesus the US gets the blame for everything.

 

[georgephillip]

The US is to blame for pol pot now? Jesus the US gets the blame for everything.

US bombs and artillery were responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of Cambodian civilians in an attempt to interdict NV suppy lines.

Chomsky makes sure to include that fact in his assessments of Pol Pot's genocide.

 

[westwall]

The US is to blame for pol pot now? Jesus the US gets the blame for everything.

US bombs and artillery were responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of Cambodian civilians in an attempt to interdict NV suppy lines.

Chomsky makes sure to include that fact in his assessments of Pol Pot's genocide.

I am sure he does, the only problem is it is a false assertion with no basis in fact other than Chomsky trying to hide Pol Pots genocide by attributing it to the US. Chomsky is a fool, as is any moron who licks his boots.

 

[georgephillip]

False according to whom?
Berkeley undergrads?

"An official United States Air Force record of some US bombing activity over Indochina from 1964 to 1973 was declassified by US president Bill Clinton in 2000.

"The data reveals the true extent of the bombing of Cambodia, as well as Laos and Vietnam. According to the data, the Air Force began bombing the rural regions of Cambodia along its South Vietnam border in 1965 under the Johnson administration. This was four years earlier than previously believed.

"A report by historian Ben Kiernan and Taylor Owen states 2,756,941 tons of ordnance was dropped in 230,516 sorties on 113,716 sites.

"Just over 10 percent of this bombing was indiscriminate, with 3,580 of the sites listed as having 'unknown' targets and another 8,238 sites having no target listed at all.[1][2]

"The Menu bombings were an escalation of these air attacks. Nixon authorized the use of long-range B-52 bombers to carpet bomb the region.

"Historians now classify the campaign as a mere fourteen month phase in an extensive series of secretive bombing raids that spanned a period of eleven years."

Are you familiar with the concept of carpet bombing?
2,756,941 tons of ordinance.
230, 516 sorties.

'Think they killed any Cambodian civilians?
'Think Dick and Henry cared?
Do you think the profit margin on every bomb mattered more than the loss of life?

Operation Menu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Trajan]

The US is to blame for pol pot now? Jesus the US gets the blame for everything.

US bombs and artillery were responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of Cambodian civilians in an attempt to interdict NV suppy lines.

Chomsky makes sure to include that fact in his assessments of Pol Pot's genocide.

"hundreds of thousands"?....uhmm, I am gong to have to ask for a sane link on that please.

 

[hipeter924]

The US is to blame for pol pot now? Jesus the US gets the blame for everything.

US bombs and artillery were responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of Cambodian civilians in an attempt to interdict NV suppy lines.

Chomsky makes sure to include that fact in his assessments of Pol Pot's genocide.

"hundreds of thousands"?....uhmm, I am gong to have to ask for a sane link on that please.

He makes more wild claims every day in an attempt to provide legitimacy to himself, while causing the opposite result, as far as I remember China put Pol Pot in power, the US and other foreign nations provided some support to Cambodia as well later withdrawing it when the worst of Pol Pots regime showed itself (not sure but China withdrew support at some point as well). NV later invaded Cambodia and Pol Pot was pushed from power and the genocide stopped. As for 'hundreds of thousands' it is more like hundreds or thousands killed, and certainly not deliberately.