Chicago Teachers: Apparently a 16 percent raise not good enough

[Oldstyle]

Retards like you should be prevented from starting threads:

In any event, a 16 percent raise over 4 years works out, at best, to a four percent annual raise.

Except that…


Second, as Doug Henwood points out, Chicago is also asking the teachers for a 20 percent longer school day. Once you take that and inflation into account, the four percent annual raise works out to be a cut, not a raise.


Third, according to the Chicago affiliate of ABC News—Moran’s network—David Vitale, head of the Chicago School District, says that the city is offering a 3 percent raise the first year, and 2 percent raises for the remaining three years of the contract. That hardly works out to a 16 percent raise. 9 percent at best. As Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor, a Chicago resident and history grad student at Northwestern, explains to me, the city hasn’t revealed how it came up with that 16 percent figure, but the best guess is that it includes other things like step increases, which are based on seniority. Contrary to what Moran suggests, it is in no way is an increase in base pay.


Fourth, as Doug also points out, BLS statistics indicate that the average pay for Chicago teachers is $55-60 thousand, not $74,000.


And fifth, the Times takes great pains to stress that it is citing management numbers. Setting aside the fact that those numbers appear to be wrong, how hard is it for Moran—a journalist—to take that into account in his statements? Even the most simpleminded definition of objectivity—report both sides of the story—would suggest a certain degree of skepticism on his part.


Okay, that’s all that the level of the facts. But let’s assume for the sake of the argument that Moran had his facts right. There still remains this question, which I posed to Moran in a followup tweet and never got an answer to.
​

Terry Moran: How much fucking money do you make a year? « Corey Robin


This is sooo fucking easy!

They are also fighting for smaller class sizes.

Don't post facts. Many on here feel facts spoil a good tussle.

Many just grab a bumper-sticker slogan and run with it...

If they knew the facts, they wouldn't have the beliefs they have.

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

 

[squeeze berry]

They are also fighting for smaller class sizes.

Don't post facts. Many on here feel facts spoil a good tussle.

Many just grab a bumper-sticker slogan and run with it...

If they knew the facts, they wouldn't have the beliefs they have.

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

I see a lot of incompetence in private industry.

 

[Wroberson]

Last year while I was delivering a pizza across from a k-8 school in Chicago I noticed that the doors of the school bus opened towards the middle of the street instead of towards the curb or the school. I did a quick survey over the next few weeks and found 4 out of 5 schools are on streets that allow this to happen. It's not the bus company at fault, but the one way street system is to blame.

I did some laws research and the Illinois Department of Transportation has a law or policy that says, school buses must drop the students off at the curb for safety. The bus must then wait for the kids to cross at the front of the bus where necessary. There is an exception that says it may be required for a member of the school staff to personally escort students across the street.

Because I was able to pass the bus cutting in front of the passenger door, I found the set up and conditions at these schools to place student in danger because the students are being allowed to exit the school bus directly into oncoming traffic without escort. I sent a complaint straight at the mayor with no reply.

I find the teacher strike in Chicago to be the fault of City government and it's lack of concern for the safety of the students. Instead of fixing an existing problem, they have introduced a new problem. Speed cameras near schools. They claim it's for the safety of the students, but it is in fact another questionable fine using cameras as witness against the people.

I can't fault the teachers for their instinct to get more money.
Vultures need to eat and raise families too.

 

[Oldstyle]

If they knew the facts, they wouldn't have the beliefs they have.

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

I see a lot of incompetence in private industry.

Incompetence in private industry is taken care of by market forces. If you're incompetent and you're in the private sector competition will make you go belly up. (Unless of course you're GM...and you get bailed out but that's another kettle of fish) If you're in the public sector and you're incompetent you keep on getting paid because it's damn near impossible to fire someone who's "merely" incompetent from a public sector job. There IS no competition to keep things honest and to motivate public sector workers.

 

[blimpo]

They are also fighting for smaller class sizes.

Don't post facts. Many on here feel facts spoil a good tussle.

Many just grab a bumper-sticker slogan and run with it...

If they knew the facts, they wouldn't have the beliefs they have.

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

I get so sick of hearing 'we spend the most and get the least of any country in the universe'.

One more time for the dense: THAT'S RIGHT. WE ENCOURAGE SPECIAL ED TO STAY IN SCHOOL TO TRY TO GRADUATE. THE PER PUPIL COST SOARS WHEN OVER 17% OF THE STUDENT BODY LEGALLY HAS TO HAVE ALMOST ONE-ON-ONE SERVICES. OTHER COUNTRIES DON'T DO THAT.

 

[squeeze berry]

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

I see a lot of incompetence in private industry.

Incompetence in private industry is taken care of by market forces. If you're incompetent and you're in the private sector competition will make you go belly up. (Unless of course you're GM...and you get bailed out but that's another kettle of fish) If you're in the public sector and you're incompetent you keep on getting paid because it's damn near impossible to fire someone who's "merely" incompetent from a public sector job. There IS no competition to keep things honest and to motivate public sector workers.

a friend is a landlord with a couple dozen rental properties in the area.

i see all knds of sloppy workmanship by the builders.

You do you think pays for their shoddy work?

That's right. the homeowner coming up behind them b/c by the time the homewoner finds out it's too late.

i have other stories like that.

yes, proivate sector employees get away with murder.

 

[squeeze berry]

If they knew the facts, they wouldn't have the beliefs they have.

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

I get so sick of hearing 'we spend the most and get the least of any country in the universe'.

One more time for the dense: THAT'S RIGHT. WE ENCOURAGE SPECIAL ED TO STAY IN SCHOOL TO TRY TO GRADUATE. THE PER PUPIL COST SOARS WHEN OVER 17% OF THE STUDENT BODY LEGALLY HAS TO HAVE ALMOST ONE-ON-ONE SERVICES. OTHER COUNTRIES DON'T DO THAT.

if they are graduating with an IEP diploma rather than a regular diploma, they can stay until age 22.

And they ALL stay until 22 because the parents want the free babysitting.

 

[Polk]

They are also fighting for smaller class sizes.

Don't post facts. Many on here feel facts spoil a good tussle.

Many just grab a bumper-sticker slogan and run with it...

If they knew the facts, they wouldn't have the beliefs they have.

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

We're already paying teachers poorly and you want to reduce their pay even further? That's only keep the cycle going. Why would the best and brightest want to consider becoming teachers when they'd have made almost as much without an education?

 

[Polk]

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

I see a lot of incompetence in private industry.

Incompetence in private industry is taken care of by market forces. If you're incompetent and you're in the private sector competition will make you go belly up. (Unless of course you're GM...and you get bailed out but that's another kettle of fish) If you're in the public sector and you're incompetent you keep on getting paid because it's damn near impossible to fire someone who's "merely" incompetent from a public sector job. There IS no competition to keep things honest and to motivate public sector workers.

Depends on what kind of industry you're in. If you're in private equity, you structure the deals so that you win no matter the outcome.

 

[regent]

The Chicago public schools just didn't open yesterday. the CPS has been there for a long long time. If the CPS began with incompetent teachers those teachers have long retired and left the district, and based on that experience one would expect CPS schools to have the knowledge to hire only competent teaches, teachers they know can do the job. They also have had the opportunity to work out an outstanding curriculumn, but have they? It seems the Chicago school district has not learned a thing in all those years, not how to hire teachers not able to work out great teaching programs.
The district has learned. however, to blame all about them, particularly teachers for their problems. Posters have put on the facts how many students cannot do this and that at grade level, so what has the leadership done about these problems? They can't hire competent teachers, cannot write a competent curriculum cannot run competent schools, so who is at fault? And this holds true for large parts of America. No wonder teachers strike.

 

[Oldstyle]

If they knew the facts, they wouldn't have the beliefs they have.

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

I get so sick of hearing 'we spend the most and get the least of any country in the universe'.

One more time for the dense: THAT'S RIGHT. WE ENCOURAGE SPECIAL ED TO STAY IN SCHOOL TO TRY TO GRADUATE. THE PER PUPIL COST SOARS WHEN OVER 17% OF THE STUDENT BODY LEGALLY HAS TO HAVE ALMOST ONE-ON-ONE SERVICES. OTHER COUNTRIES DON'T DO THAT.

And let's not forget all of the "English as a second language" classes that we have to have, Blimpo! Wouldn't want to make illegals have to learn the language of their "adopted" country, now would we?

 

[Oldstyle]

I see a lot of incompetence in private industry.

Incompetence in private industry is taken care of by market forces. If you're incompetent and you're in the private sector competition will make you go belly up. (Unless of course you're GM...and you get bailed out but that's another kettle of fish) If you're in the public sector and you're incompetent you keep on getting paid because it's damn near impossible to fire someone who's "merely" incompetent from a public sector job. There IS no competition to keep things honest and to motivate public sector workers.

Depends on what kind of industry you're in. If you're in private equity, you structure the deals so that you win no matter the outcome.

Ah, if you're incompetent in private equity then you fail to structure the deals properly and you get canned for BEING incompetent. The only place where incompetence is not only accepted but darn near demanded is in the public sector. If you work in government and you go "above and beyond"? You're going to get sat down and told not to show everyone else up.

 

[Oldstyle]

If they knew the facts, they wouldn't have the beliefs they have.

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

We're already paying teachers poorly and you want to reduce their pay even further? That's only keep the cycle going. Why would the best and brightest want to consider becoming teachers when they'd have made almost as much without an education?

Are you kidding? The AVERAGE teacher's pay in Chicago is $78,000 a year with great benefits and lots of time off. What job without an education pays that kind of money with those kinds of hours and those kinds of benefits? You're living in a dream world, my friend. Besides, I never said that I wanted to reduce their pay further...I simply think it's absurd to give them raise after raise when their performance SUCKS and the city is broke. It makes no sense at all....none!!!

 

[Oldstyle]

I see a lot of incompetence in private industry.

Incompetence in private industry is taken care of by market forces. If you're incompetent and you're in the private sector competition will make you go belly up. (Unless of course you're GM...and you get bailed out but that's another kettle of fish) If you're in the public sector and you're incompetent you keep on getting paid because it's damn near impossible to fire someone who's "merely" incompetent from a public sector job. There IS no competition to keep things honest and to motivate public sector workers.

a friend is a landlord with a couple dozen rental properties in the area.

i see all knds of sloppy workmanship by the builders.

You do you think pays for their shoddy work?

That's right. the homeowner coming up behind them b/c by the time the homewoner finds out it's too late.

i have other stories like that.

yes, proivate sector employees get away with murder.

If builders don't give the people who they work for a quality job than that reputation will very quickly spread. If you're not smart enough to do a little checking into the background of the house you're buying then you DESERVE to get stuck with a shoddy house. And if your friend who owns all that rental property bought sub par housing then unless he's an idiot he should have gotten it at a discount.

Try getting a discount on shoddy service at the DMV...

 

[barry1960]

The facts? You mean like the fact that we spend more per student than almost anyone on the planet yet our kids aren't learning? You mean THOSE kind of facts?

Look, the money isn't there for the salaries that we're paying teachers. Sorry but it's not. The days of automatic raises from sympathetic politicians are pretty much over. If you don't think so then explain what's going on in Chicago with a progressive Mayor like Rahm Emanuel reining in the teacher's union. If that isn't a sign of a coming "apocalypse" for both public sector unions and the liberals who rabidly support them, then I don't know what is.

I get so sick of hearing 'we spend the most and get the least of any country in the universe'.

One more time for the dense: THAT'S RIGHT. WE ENCOURAGE SPECIAL ED TO STAY IN SCHOOL TO TRY TO GRADUATE. THE PER PUPIL COST SOARS WHEN OVER 17% OF THE STUDENT BODY LEGALLY HAS TO HAVE ALMOST ONE-ON-ONE SERVICES. OTHER COUNTRIES DON'T DO THAT.

if they are graduating with an IEP diploma rather than a regular diploma, they can stay until age 22.

And they ALL stay until 22 because the parents want the free babysitting.

As the father of a disabled child I find your comment offensive.

Raising and educating a disabled child is exhausting and anyone who knows this could hardly blame the parents for wanting respite. However, many parents want an education for their child while the school seems to be the one intent on babysitting. As far as one on one services, that really is not true. It is more typical that the student-teacher ratio is reduced.

What is the alternative to expensive special education? Toss the disabled out of school? Deny them a free public education while their parents who own homes and pay property taxes to support public education?

 

[squeeze berry]

Incompetence in private industry is taken care of by market forces. If you're incompetent and you're in the private sector competition will make you go belly up. (Unless of course you're GM...and you get bailed out but that's another kettle of fish) If you're in the public sector and you're incompetent you keep on getting paid because it's damn near impossible to fire someone who's "merely" incompetent from a public sector job. There IS no competition to keep things honest and to motivate public sector workers.

a friend is a landlord with a couple dozen rental properties in the area.

i see all knds of sloppy workmanship by the builders.

You do you think pays for their shoddy work?

That's right. the homeowner coming up behind them b/c by the time the homewoner finds out it's too late.

i have other stories like that.

yes, proivate sector employees get away with murder.

If builders don't give the people who they work for a quality job than that reputation will very quickly spread. If you're not smart enough to do a little checking into the background of the house you're buying then you DESERVE to get stuck with a shoddy house. And if your friend who owns all that rental property bought sub par housing then unless he's an idiot he should have gotten it at a discount.

Try getting a discount on shoddy service at the DMV...

try getting trhough to your phone company on the first try witout waiting a half hour

and then they raise the rates 10% or more a year

 

[squeeze berry]

I get so sick of hearing 'we spend the most and get the least of any country in the universe'.

One more time for the dense: THAT'S RIGHT. WE ENCOURAGE SPECIAL ED TO STAY IN SCHOOL TO TRY TO GRADUATE. THE PER PUPIL COST SOARS WHEN OVER 17% OF THE STUDENT BODY LEGALLY HAS TO HAVE ALMOST ONE-ON-ONE SERVICES. OTHER COUNTRIES DON'T DO THAT.

if they are graduating with an IEP diploma rather than a regular diploma, they can stay until age 22.

And they ALL stay until 22 because the parents want the free babysitting.

As the father of a disabled child I find your comment offensive.
Raising and educating a disabled child is exhausting and anyone who knows this could hardly blame the parents for wanting respite. However, many parents want an education for their child while the school seems to be the one intent on babysitting. As far as one on one services, that really is not true. It is more typical that the student-teacher ratio is reduced.

What is the alternative to expensive special education? Toss the disabled out of school? Deny them a free public education while their parents who own homes and pay property taxes to support public education?

Others pay taxes too, not just you.

And yes, some parents regard the schools as baby sitters. they send their child into school sick and complain when the school nurse calls them to come get their sick child.

Send them into school early for the staff to babysit so they can shop.

Be late picking them up after school so they can run errands.

All without one word of thanks

You sound like that kind of parent. Perhaps i struck a nerve.

 

[barry1960]

if they are graduating with an IEP diploma rather than a regular diploma, they can stay until age 22.

And they ALL stay until 22 because the parents want the free babysitting.

As the father of a disabled child I find your comment offensive.
Raising and educating a disabled child is exhausting and anyone who knows this could hardly blame the parents for wanting respite. However, many parents want an education for their child while the school seems to be the one intent on babysitting. As far as one on one services, that really is not true. It is more typical that the student-teacher ratio is reduced.

What is the alternative to expensive special education? Toss the disabled out of school? Deny them a free public education while their parents who own homes and pay property taxes to support public education?

Others pay taxes too, not just you.

And yes, some parents regard the schools as baby sitters. they send their child into school sick and complain when the school nurse calls them to come get their sick child.

Send them into school early for the staff to babysit so they can shop.

Be late picking them up after school so they can run errands.

All without one word of thanks

You sound like that kind of parent. Perhaps i struck a nerve.

Actually, my wife and I homeschool our mentally disabled child. We do so because the school did not provide an appropriate education after meeting with school officials repeatedly, In addition my son was physically abused by a teacher's aide that was at first covered up by administrators, then when admitted, no corrective action was taken.

I live in a very good school district. Special property tax assessments make my area one of the highest property taxes in the state per assessed dollar value of residence. However my son is precluded from attending in his own district. When he did go to school he was assigned a county school in a dilapidated area 13 miles away. One school administrator told us in an IEP meeting that "Your son will never set foot in one of our classrooms!"

Homeschooling is difficult. We feel that it is the right decision for our child, but it is sad that the school district did such a poor job. My son was entitled to a free education. This means we are a one income household so there is a financial sacrifice as well. There are others we know in the exact position we are homeschooling their disabled children.


You state that you strucjk a nerve. I guess the nerve you struck is that of an ignorant poster who makes rude comments about parents who are grappling with the tough task of raising a disabled child.

I would say shame on you, but you do not strike me as one capable of feeling such. I can only hope that you engage in an occupation far away from education.

 

[Oldstyle]

a friend is a landlord with a couple dozen rental properties in the area.

i see all knds of sloppy workmanship by the builders.

You do you think pays for their shoddy work?

That's right. the homeowner coming up behind them b/c by the time the homewoner finds out it's too late.

i have other stories like that.

yes, proivate sector employees get away with murder.

If builders don't give the people who they work for a quality job than that reputation will very quickly spread. If you're not smart enough to do a little checking into the background of the house you're buying then you DESERVE to get stuck with a shoddy house. And if your friend who owns all that rental property bought sub par housing then unless he's an idiot he should have gotten it at a discount.

Try getting a discount on shoddy service at the DMV...

try getting trhough to your phone company on the first try witout waiting a half hour

and then they raise the rates 10% or more a year

So you have a "choice" to choose ANOTHER phone company, you idiot...someone who does treat you better. What choice do you have at the DMV or any other governmental agency? The reason that teacher's unions hate having parents be able to get vouchers to put their kids in private schools is that means that THEIR teachers are forced to compete and no longer have a monopoly.

 

[blimpo]

I get so sick of hearing 'we spend the most and get the least of any country in the universe'.

One more time for the dense: THAT'S RIGHT. WE ENCOURAGE SPECIAL ED TO STAY IN SCHOOL TO TRY TO GRADUATE. THE PER PUPIL COST SOARS WHEN OVER 17% OF THE STUDENT BODY LEGALLY HAS TO HAVE ALMOST ONE-ON-ONE SERVICES. OTHER COUNTRIES DON'T DO THAT.

if they are graduating with an IEP diploma rather than a regular diploma, they can stay until age 22.

And they ALL stay until 22 because the parents want the free babysitting.

As the father of a disabled child I find your comment offensive.

Raising and educating a disabled child is exhausting and anyone who knows this could hardly blame the parents for wanting respite. However, many parents want an education for their child while the school seems to be the one intent on babysitting. As far as one on one services, that really is not true. It is more typical that the student-teacher ratio is reduced.

What is the alternative to expensive special education? Toss the disabled out of school? Deny them a free public education while their parents who own homes and pay property taxes to support public education?

You have a point. I was only making the special ed issue a point as to why you can't compare other countrys' spending with ours.
What you say about tossing the disabled out of school is what many countries do.

Your problems (except for the abuse which should never be tolerated) come from the fact that the demographics of a public school make it where public schools were never meant to be a service where individuals get tailored need instruction.

I used to just shake my head when administrators would stress 'meeting the needs of each individual child'. That's a noble goal, but totally unworkable under the current system. During an average day I would have over 150 kids in classes. Individual needs flew out the window when I was forced to cover all standards so we could pass the standardized tests (which became the only way our school was judged).

For special ed students, inclusion is a nightmare for teachers and a total waste for the mentally handicapped. Parents don't know this and would raise hell if the truth was known.
Their kids sit in a regular classroom doing little while they could be in a classroom with others on their level getting specialized instruction to raise their reading levels. Instead they waste this time listening to facts about the War of 1812 which does nothing to erase their problems.

As for teachers, many of these kids are labeled Emotionally Handicapped and they disrupt and turn many classes into a Ringling Bros. circus. This wastes everyone's time.

Getting back to my main point, schools were designed to give basic educations which students can use when going on to more education or a job, not as a specialized institution for those with special needs. A better system would be for taxpayers to fund places where those that have special needs have those needs met without anyone wasting time. This ain't going to happen...