Cherry Picking Jesus Apart

[Jack Fate]

The first Jews converted to Christianity?

Bullshit. Produce links for that claim. Apparently you've not spent much time studying Judaic theology, nor have you spent much time learning the history.

At first, the apostles wanted to make everyone convert to Judaism.

Additionally, Yeshua said that He didn't come to replace the law, but rather to add to it. The addition was the nations of the world.

No offense, but you're confused. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not add to it. That is not what the bible says. The law was nailed to the cross and died with Jesus. That is what the bible says.

 

[Smartt33]

I have never seen such screwed up theology as I see on this thread!!!

 

[CurveLight]

I have never seen such screwed up theology as I see on this thread!!!

There's nothing stopping from explaining why. (Other than not being able to)

 

[CurveLight]

You have things backwards.

To get forgiveness from sin, you don't forgive others, you make amends for the sins that you did against others.

How does one get forgiveness from sin? Can sin grant forgiveness?

If you make amends for your sins but do not forgive others for their sins then you cannot have forgiveness. Jesus clearly taught "...forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us."

You're arguing against one of the most clearest things Jesus stated. How was he wrong?

 

[hortysir]

The Lord's Prayer was given during the Sermon on the Mount. There were a few more than 12 people there and how in the world you come up with the disciples' salvation already being "complete" in Jesus' eyes is just too fucking bizarre to even being curious about. You're the kind that will say whatever whenever so long as it seems to apply.

Since the sermon was (obviously) given before His crucifixion, wouldn't it be logical that Jesus would tell them to pray to the Father and not Himself?
His sacrifice hadn't been fulfilled yet.
The price hadn't been paid yet, by Him.
I am still asking my Father to forgive me.
I just do it in the name of Jesus, the One that paid the price for me.
Since He paid that debt, the forgiveness is already paid for. All we have to do is approach our Father, with a humble heart, and accept it in the Spirit it was given!

 

[CurveLight]

The Lord's Prayer was given during the Sermon on the Mount. There were a few more than 12 people there and how in the world you come up with the disciples' salvation already being "complete" in Jesus' eyes is just too fucking bizarre to even being curious about. You're the kind that will say whatever whenever so long as it seems to apply.

Since the sermon was (obviously) given before His crucifixion, wouldn't it be logical that Jesus would tell them to pray to the Father and not Himself?
His sacrifice hadn't been fulfilled yet.
The price hadn't been paid yet, by Him.
I am still asking my Father to forgive me.
I just do it in the name of Jesus, the One that paid the price for me.
Since He paid that debt, the forgiveness is already paid for. All we have to do is approach our Father, with a humble heart, and accept it in the Spirit it was given!

That's theologically contradictory because if the Old law did not get abolished until the Resurrection then Jesus taught a violation of the Old law. Why would he give a false teaching? He also didn't give a time reference or limitation

Jesus never said to "accept him as Savior." That is no where in the New Testament. We also know he was not omniscient by his own proclamation so he said to pray to God because there is only one God.

 

[hortysir]

The Lord's Prayer was given during the Sermon on the Mount. There were a few more than 12 people there and how in the world you come up with the disciples' salvation already being "complete" in Jesus' eyes is just too fucking bizarre to even being curious about. You're the kind that will say whatever whenever so long as it seems to apply.

Since the sermon was (obviously) given before His crucifixion, wouldn't it be logical that Jesus would tell them to pray to the Father and not Himself?
His sacrifice hadn't been fulfilled yet.
The price hadn't been paid yet, by Him.
I am still asking my Father to forgive me.
I just do it in the name of Jesus, the One that paid the price for me.
Since He paid that debt, the forgiveness is already paid for. All we have to do is approach our Father, with a humble heart, and accept it in the Spirit it was given!

That's theologically contradictory because if the Old law did not get abolished until the Resurrection then Jesus taught a violation of the Old law. Why would he give a false teaching? He also didn't give a time reference or limitation

Jesus never said to "accept him as Savior." That is no where in the New Testament. We also know he was not omniscient by his own proclamation so he said to pray to God because there is only one God.

What false teaching are you claiming He taught?

And, no, He wouldn't be considered a savior until he was sacrificed, resurrected, and shown to be divine.

 

[Kat]

The Lord's Prayer was given during the Sermon on the Mount. There were a few more than 12 people there and how in the world you come up with the disciples' salvation already being "complete" in Jesus' eyes is just too fucking bizarre to even being curious about. You're the kind that will say whatever whenever so long as it seems to apply.

Since the sermon was (obviously) given before His crucifixion, wouldn't it be logical that Jesus would tell them to pray to the Father and not Himself?
His sacrifice hadn't been fulfilled yet.
The price hadn't been paid yet, by Him.
I am still asking my Father to forgive me.
I just do it in the name of Jesus, the One that paid the price for me.
Since He paid that debt, the forgiveness is already paid for. All we have to do is approach our Father, with a humble heart, and accept it in the Spirit it was given!

That's theologically contradictory because if the Old law did not get abolished until the Resurrection then Jesus taught a violation of the Old law. Why would he give a false teaching? He also didn't give a time reference or limitation

Jesus never said to "accept him as Savior." That is no where in the New Testament. We also know he was not omniscient by his own proclamation so he said to pray to God because there is only one God.

John 14:6

''Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.''

 

[Smartt33]

I have never seen such screwed up theology as I see on this thread!!!

There's nothing stopping from explaining why. (Other than not being able to)

much of the theology here is not at all based upon the Bible because nothing in what most people have said here is in the Bible. It is what the Bible calls, "another gospel." It is people speaking or preaching that which sounds good to them and thus must be right. Forget what the Bible says, that just gets in the way of feeling good.

 

[Smartt33]

The first Jews converted to Christianity?

Bullshit. Produce links for that claim. Apparently you've not spent much time studying Judaic theology, nor have you spent much time learning the history.

At first, the apostles wanted to make everyone convert to Judaism.

Additionally, Yeshua said that He didn't come to replace the law, but rather to add to it. The addition was the nations of the world.

No offense, but you're confused. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not add to it. That is not what the bible says. The law was nailed to the cross and died with Jesus. That is what the bible says.

You are correct. ABiker seems to be trying to make the Bible agree wioth his theology.

Jews were indeed the majority of the first converts to what was then called Christianity. Jesus came to fulfill the law so the Jews could be saved, and the Covenent could be completed. The law has become what it always was, "The way, the truth, and the life."

 

[Hellokitty]

Since the sermon was (obviously) given before His crucifixion, wouldn't it be logical that Jesus would tell them to pray to the Father and not Himself?
His sacrifice hadn't been fulfilled yet.
The price hadn't been paid yet, by Him.
I am still asking my Father to forgive me.
I just do it in the name of Jesus, the One that paid the price for me.
Since He paid that debt, the forgiveness is already paid for. All we have to do is approach our Father, with a humble heart, and accept it in the Spirit it was given!

That's theologically contradictory because if the Old law did not get abolished until the Resurrection then Jesus taught a violation of the Old law. Why would he give a false teaching? He also didn't give a time reference or limitation

Jesus never said to "accept him as Savior." That is no where in the New Testament. We also know he was not omniscient by his own proclamation so he said to pray to God because there is only one God.

John 14:6

''Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.''

The only way to the Father is through relationship with the Son. Only in relationship with Jesus can we begin to understand unconditional forgiveness. Ever time we forgive others we gain a deeper understanding of the sacrifice Jesus made as payment for our sins.

Jesus was teaching the disciples how to pray in relationship with God as the Father. When we accept Jesus and pray to the Father He no longer sees our sins and brokenness, but sees us in the same light as Jesus.

 

[CMike]

Yeshua didn't come for the Jews. Why? HE IS JEWISH!!!!!! The Jews already had a covenant with God because of their ancestor Abraham who recognized the One True God, and because of that, God blessed Abraham's descendents.

Incidentally, in the story where Yeshua goes over and casts demons out of a man into a bunch of swine, well......on his way out of Jerusalem, He saw a fellow Jew who recognized who He was, and Yeshua told the man to be quiet and not tell anyone.

After He cast the demons out of the guy who WASN'T JEWISH? Well, He then tells the man He's cast the demons out of to tell everyone what God had done for him, via Yeshua.

No, He didn't come to save the Jews, they already had their connection to God. He came for the nations of the world, or to put it another way........everyone who WASN'T Jewish.

There are a few problems with this theory. The first is Jews converted to Christianity. The second is Hebrews 8 spells it out pretty clearly the covenant brought by Jesus replaced the old covenant which means Jews were not in a saddle of immunity if they had to pony up to this new covenant.

There were some Jews who believed what you are claiming which is why Paul spent a good deal of time with reconciliations between Jewish and Gentile Christians. Romans deals a lot on this particular issue.

Jesus didn't come to say Jews are "God's chosen people." He came to say everyone was loved by God and had direct access to God's love and forgiveness without the need for silly ceremonies and jaw dropping extortion schemes run by pretty thieves in a formal hierachical structure.

Jews did not convert to christianity

Some jews rebelled against G-D and converted to christianity.

 

[CMike]

The first Jews converted to Christianity?

Bullshit. Produce links for that claim. Apparently you've not spent much time studying Judaic theology, nor have you spent much time learning the history.

At first, the apostles wanted to make everyone convert to Judaism.

Additionally, Yeshua said that He didn't come to replace the law, but rather to add to it. The addition was the nations of the world.

No offense, but you're confused. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not add to it. That is not what the bible says. The law was nailed to the cross and died with Jesus. That is what the bible says.

If you are talking about judaism, jesus can not add to it nor fulfill it.

Deutronomy

Chapter 4:

2. Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

There is not such thing as fulfilling jewish law as the commandments are perpetual.

Do not murder. How do you fulfill that?

Keep the Sabbath. How do you fulfill that?

Jewish law is perpetual. There is no such thing as one person fulfilling them.

 

[CMike]

You have things backwards.

To get forgiveness from sin, you don't forgive others, you make amends for the sins that you did against others.

How does one get forgiveness from sin? Can sin grant forgiveness?

If you make amends for your sins but do not forgive others for their sins then you cannot have forgiveness. Jesus clearly taught "...forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us."

You're arguing against one of the most clearest things Jesus stated. How was he wrong?

Because what jesus said is irrelevant to me.

 

[CMike]

G-D and jesus are mutually exclusive.

G-D made it very clear that there is only him, and you are not to worship anyone but him.

Therefore, if you are worshipping jesus, or expecting him to "save you" you are directly going against what G-D said.

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

O Lord, are You not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One… (Habakkuk 1:12)

I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere Him. (Ecclesiastes, 3:14)

Before the mountains were born or You brought forth the Earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting You are God. (Psalms, 90:2)

Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever…(Psalms, 45:6)

For this is what the high and lofty One says—He Who lives forever, Whose name is holy...(Isaiah, 57:15)

and said: "Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are His." (Daniel, 2:20)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. (Ecclesiastes, 3:11)

…For He is the living God and He endures forever… His dominion will never end. (Daniel, 6:26)

Praise be to the Lord … from everlasting to everlasting… (1 Chronicles, 16:36)

But You, O Lord, are exalted forever. (Psalms, 92:8)

The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever. (Isaiah, 40:8)

 

[HUGGY]

G-D and jesus are mutually exclusive.

G-D made it very clear that there is only him, and you are not to worship anyone but him.

Therefore, if you are worshipping jesus, or expecting him to "save you" you are directly going against what G-D said.

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

O Lord, are You not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One… (Habakkuk 1:12)

I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere Him. (Ecclesiastes, 3:14)

Before the mountains were born or You brought forth the Earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting You are God. (Psalms, 90:2)

Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever…(Psalms, 45:6)

For this is what the high and lofty One says—He Who lives forever, Whose name is holy...(Isaiah, 57:15)

and said: "Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are His." (Daniel, 2:20)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. (Ecclesiastes, 3:11)

…For He is the living God and He endures forever… His dominion will never end. (Daniel, 6:26)

Praise be to the Lord … from everlasting to everlasting… (1 Chronicles, 16:36)

But You, O Lord, are exalted forever. (Psalms, 92:8)

The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever. (Isaiah, 40:8)

Many of the reasons the human race is about a thousand years behind in it's developement.

You can thank christians and jews if we ever have to do something serious like stop a large asteroid for the time they wasted praying.

 

[uscitizen]

All written by jews or the cultists of Jesus.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I have never seen such screwed up theology as I see on this thread!!!

There's nothing stopping from explaining why. (Other than not being able to)

much of the theology here is not at all based upon the Bible because nothing in what most people have said here is in the Bible. It is what the Bible calls, "another gospel." It is people speaking or preaching that which sounds good to them and thus must be right. Forget what the Bible says, that just gets in the way of feeling good.

Could you be a little more specific about what is and is not in the Bible you read?

 

[foggedinn]

It's important to understand and explain in what sense Jesus fulfilled the Law; if we claim it. If people who accept Jesus as Christ truly understood it, many of their claims would cease.

God's plan of salvation is given in Lev. 16. The Day of atonement. Jesus fulfilled his role as the sin sacrifice. Without the willing sacrifice Jesus, God's plan could not be completed.

However, there is more to the Day of Atonement than the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. The claim by some who are followers of Jesus that he fulfilled all the Law is wrong. Claims that we are no longer under the Law is not only bad doctrine, it is dangerous both physically and spiritually.

Most of the truly bad doctrine I see being posted seems to be coming from Christians who base their understanding strictly on the New Testament.

God told the prophet Hosea to marry into whoredome. He did. She strayed. Hosea loved her and accepted her completely when she came home. I believe the story to be a metaphor for Christ's love for his bride the church. No matter how far she strays, Christ loves her.

 

[CurveLight]

It's important to understand and explain in what sense Jesus fulfilled the Law; if we claim it. If people who accept Jesus as Christ truly understood it, many of their claims would cease.

God's plan of salvation is given in Lev. 16. The Day of atonement. Jesus fulfilled his role as the sin sacrifice. Without the willing sacrifice Jesus, God's plan could not be completed.

However, there is more to the Day of Atonement than the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. The claim by some who are followers of Jesus that he fulfilled all the Law is wrong. Claims that we are no longer under the Law is not only bad doctrine, it is dangerous both physically and spiritually.

Most of the truly bad doctrine I see being posted seems to be coming from Christians who base their understanding strictly on the New Testament.

God told the prophet Hosea to marry into whoredome. He did. She strayed. Hosea loved her and accepted her completely when she came home. I believe the story to be a metaphor for Christ's love for his bride the church. No matter how far she strays, Christ loves her.

The "Law" is not endemic to "rules" or Commandments. It is also a euphemism for the Old Testament itself which contains many prophecies so instead of looking at it as Jesus fulfilled the "Law" it makes most sense to see it as Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. What Jesus fulfilled is spelled out pretty clearly:

Heb 8:13

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."