Cherry Picking Jesus Apart

Maybe it is because Jesus is God.

Yes--God is schizo. Sometimes he is Yahweh, other times Jesus Christ.

I am just glad I got past all of that nonsense--It seems like Curve, smart, and even Tsalk could actually be nice people. But their differences over Mystical Nuances is reason enough to insult and fight each other.

Makes you think, with a religion like christianity, who needs the devil?

Don't throw Christianity under the bus because I'm an asshole.
 
Maybe it is because Jesus is God.

Yes--God is schizo. Sometimes he is Yahweh, other times Jesus Christ.

I am just glad I got past all of that nonsense--It seems like Curve, smart, and even Tsalk could actually be nice people. But their differences over Mystical Nuances is reason enough to insult and fight each other.

Makes you think, with a religion like christianity, who needs the devil?

Don't throw Christianity under the bus because I'm an asshole.

I have a question for you.

Does it really matter if you know the mystical side of your religion like the back of your hand?

I mean, is it not possible to present yourself with very simple andrational explainations of why somethings are and why some behaviors are acceptable/unacceptable without pulling out the The Big JC in your arguements?

I mean, it is apparent that all men can make mistakes and it is possible that some christians maybe wrong with their interpretation but right in their intentions.

Just saying--

By the way, I am an atheist. Throwing someones religion under the bus is my speciality.
 
Maybe it is because Jesus is God.

Yes--God is schizo. Sometimes he is Yahweh, other times Jesus Christ.

I am just glad I got past all of that nonsense--It seems like Curve, smart, and even Tsalk could actually be nice people. But their differences over Mystical Nuances is reason enough to insult and fight each other.

Makes you think, with a religion like christianity, who needs the devil?

Don't throw Christianity under the bus because I'm an asshole.

I have a question for you.

Does it really matter if you know the mystical side of your religion like the back of your hand?

I mean, is it not possible to present yourself with very simple andrational explainations of why somethings are and why some behaviors are acceptable/unacceptable without pulling out the The Big JC in your arguements?

I mean, it is apparent that all men can make mistakes and it is possible that some christians maybe wrong with their interpretation but right in their intentions.

Just saying--

By the way, I am an atheist. Throwing someones religion under the bus is my speciality.

That's a strawman. I rarely pull out the big JC. This thread is specifically to address the poor theology of saying you have to "accept Jesus as your Savior" for forgiveness. That is not a theology taught by Jesus and I quoted his own words to help show that. As an atheist you probably don't care either way.
 
Don't throw Christianity under the bus because I'm an asshole.

I have a question for you.

Does it really matter if you know the mystical side of your religion like the back of your hand?

I mean, is it not possible to present yourself with very simple andrational explainations of why somethings are and why some behaviors are acceptable/unacceptable without pulling out the The Big JC in your arguements?

I mean, it is apparent that all men can make mistakes and it is possible that some christians maybe wrong with their interpretation but right in their intentions.

Just saying--

By the way, I am an atheist. Throwing someones religion under the bus is my speciality.

That's a strawman. I rarely pull out the big JC. This thread is specifically to address the poor theology of saying you have to "accept Jesus as your Savior" for forgiveness. That is not a theology taught by Jesus and I quoted his own words to help show that. As an atheist you probably don't care either way.

If I did not care either way, I would not ask the question!

The way I see it, the basis of morality as described by a religion is related to the mystical part of a religion. Yet, many of these "moral laws" seems to have a basis in non-mystical origin.

For instance, the case for charity can be explained by looking at the results of charity--The reduction of desperation among the needy in order to reduce crime and maintain order in society. Also, it helps to unite the populace as a distinct organization that can easily work together through the identifying factor of belonging between the "haves" and the "have nots".

There are other moral commands such as "Why do we bury the dead" "The need for community rituals/performances", "The need for a court system" and so on that, when I ask a random believer,some tend to revert back to the mystical origins of their religions.

On the issue of "accpting Jesus as your savior", I think that concept is part of the Christian theology. That is, in order to recieve forgiveness in Christianity, you first must become Christian. In order to do that, you must profess belief that Jesus is your savior.
 
Perhaps we should keep in mind, when reading the Bible, that the authors wrote (and plagiarized) the books over the course of one-hundred years, and had very human motivations for doing so.

For instance, Matthew is clearly written to convert the Jews, while John was written to condemn the Jews.

---

Hence, why Jesus appears to have multiple-personality-disorder when you read the Bible at face value.

The Bible was written for the purpose of informing the world that God loves His creation, and man has sinned and needs to be saved from the wages of that sin. No plagerizing, and no human motivations or agenda were part of this book. Jesus was perfect, and man has the disorders.
 
Curvelight: We are all familiar with verses like Jn 3:16 + 14:6 which are often used to claim "Salvation" is found only through "accepting Jesus as your personal Savior." For now, let's set aside the fact Jesus never actually said that and go only with the common Christian myth that accepting Jesus is Salvation. For those who adhere to that dogma how do you explain Jesus' words saying we are to pray to God to "forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us?" (Lk. 11:4) If forgiveness from God is on the condition we forgive those who sin against us then the Get out of Hell Free card is a token of cherry picking. It's lazy theology.

Smartt33: The model prayer is for people who are already Christians. It is about a relationship with God that already exists in Christ. We will still find ourselves falling into sin from time to time, and we do need to be forgiven. The forgiveness being discussed here is about that relationship, not about salvation. However, it is hypocritical to ask for forgiveness and not give it. God expects us to live the life of one who is filled with the Holy Spirit. As we forgive others we are living the life of the believer and in the same way we forgive others we can ask for forgiveness. If we do not forgive others, we can expect to be out of fellowship with God. So, summary, These verses are about an already existing relationship with God through a salvation that has already taken place. Our treatment of others and our repentant life are what allows us to have that ”abundant” relationship with God..

•truncated•

Jesus taught the prayer prior to the Crucifixion so how could Salavation have already taken place?

You say the forgiveness Jesus speaks of in the prayer is not about salvation yet he is saying God is to forgive us as we forgive those who sin against us. If God forgives through "accepting Jesus" why would forgiveness from God be conditional on us forgiving each other?

Jesus was talking to His disciples. In His eyes, their salvation was already completed, but for Judas. Salvation is about making Jesus Lord and Savior (Something that takes place in the Spirit). Fellowship with God on this earth is about forgiveness, and having a repentent heart.

How we forgive others is about sin or not, because we are ionstructed to basically forgive unconditionally. If we don't, it is as much a sin as all the others we get forgiven for. When sin is in our lives we cannot have fellowship with God, so when we fail to forgive others, as instructed, we are in sin.
 
Last edited:
The Lord's Prayer was given during the Sermon on the Mount. There were a few more than 12 people there and how in the world you come up with the disciples' salvation already being "complete" in Jesus' eyes is just too fucking bizarre to even being curious about. You're the kind that will say whatever whenever so long as it seems to apply.
 
If you don't know Jesus,

KNOW who He is ~

the ONLY perfect human to walk this earth,

the ONLY perfect sacrifice that could be made for the forgiveness of our sins ~

you're not actually a Christian, and you've misunderstood a MAJOR part of God's message.
 
The Lord's Prayer was given during the Sermon on the Mount. There were a few more than 12 people there and how in the world you come up with the disciples' salvation already being "complete" in Jesus' eyes is just too fucking bizarre to even being curious about. You're the kind that will say whatever whenever so long as it seems to apply.

FYI: The Lord's prayer was an EXAMPLE of how we are to pray, NOT a prayer that we should say over and over.
 
If you don't know Jesus,

KNOW who He is ~

the ONLY perfect human to walk this earth,

the ONLY perfect sacrifice that could be made for the forgiveness of our sins ~

you're not actually a Christian, and you've misunderstood a MAJOR part of God's message.

The Lord's Prayer was given during the Sermon on the Mount. There were a few more than 12 people there and how in the world you come up with the disciples' salvation already being "complete" in Jesus' eyes is just too fucking bizarre to even being curious about. You're the kind that will say whatever whenever so long as it seems to apply.

FYI: The Lord's prayer was an EXAMPLE of how we are to pray, NOT a prayer that we should say over and over.

Thank you for helping prove my point. Since it is an example of how we are to pray it is an example of how Jesus taught Forgiveness. Notice he didn't say anything about accepting him as Savior.

To save time, I don't give a rat fart fuck if self righteous people like you think I'm a "real" Christian or not. That is not the topic of this thread.

How do you reconcile the Lord's Prayer with the claim we have to "accept Jesus" for forgiveness?
 
Thank you for helping prove my point. Since it is an example of how we are to pray it is an example of how Jesus taught Forgiveness. Notice he didn't say anything about accepting him as Savior.

To save time, I don't give a rat fart fuck if self righteous people like you think I'm a "real" Christian or not. That is not the topic of this thread.

How do you reconcile the Lord's Prayer with the claim we have to "accept Jesus" for forgiveness?

Oh, no, man. You've misunderstood ME, too!

I'm not trying to be self-righteous ~ just trying to help another Christian "figure it out." (I had sort of hoped/prayed that what i said would make sense to you, and that you'd understand.)

(And ^that's^ NOT me saying you're stoopid)

If YOU've accepted Christ, for who He is,

and if YOU know Him ~ and it sounds like you DO ~ you're Christian.

We ALL make mistakes, especially about what He's saying to us. I, personally, have found that if i'll listen to Him, and not let the "deeply religious" folks try to sway my thinking, i walk more in line with His path.

I was honestly trying to help, NOT put you down, in any way.
 
How do you reconcile the Lord's Prayer with the claim we have to "accept Jesus" for forgiveness?

I think your actual question has to do with:

How do i reconcile the Lord's prayer to the fact that the apostles WERE saved by that time ~

beyond a shadow of a doubt, from the moment they cast their lot with Jesus, they were saved. They loved Him enough to throw off their lives and follow Him, and they believed Him and believed IN Him. When they were worried, they went to Him with their questions. When they doubted, they did it to His face, admitting that they couldn't see the way, to Him. Judas was the one exception, and betrayed Jesus by NOT doing that, by thinking he could see things more clearly, by putting himself above his Lord. He was Never saved, because he never stopped thinking that the world represented more truth than God and Jesus, and fell for the lies.

There really isn't an answer to your first question, because the one doesn't correlate to the other. An example of how we are to pray doesn't really have a direct connection to how we are to be saved. If anything, i don't remember any admonitions regarding the fact that we HAD to pray in order to be saved ~ it is assumed that the natural offshoot of being saved is the desire for a more intimate relationship with God, and that would necessitate a need for communication.
 
The only person/being that can forgive you and grant you salvation are the people you sinned against and the one G-D.
 
Thank you for helping prove my point. Since it is an example of how we are to pray it is an example of how Jesus taught Forgiveness. Notice he didn't say anything about accepting him as Savior.

To save time, I don't give a rat fart fuck if self righteous people like you think I'm a "real" Christian or not. That is not the topic of this thread.

How do you reconcile the Lord's Prayer with the claim we have to "accept Jesus" for forgiveness?

Oh, no, man. You've misunderstood ME, too!

I'm not trying to be self-righteous ~ just trying to help another Christian "figure it out." (I had sort of hoped/prayed that what i said would make sense to you, and that you'd understand.)

(And ^that's^ NOT me saying you're stoopid)

If YOU've accepted Christ, for who He is,

and if YOU know Him ~ and it sounds like you DO ~ you're Christian.

We ALL make mistakes, especially about what He's saying to us. I, personally, have found that if i'll listen to Him, and not let the "deeply religious" folks try to sway my thinking, i walk more in line with His path.

I was honestly trying to help, NOT put you down, in any way.

curve light has a filthy mouth that could use a soap washing!!!
 
Touche!

(Read some of my other posts, i take it? ;) )

I curse, too. I'm in the world, after all, and that was an instruction to us.
 
Thank you for helping prove my point. Since it is an example of how we are to pray it is an example of how Jesus taught Forgiveness. Notice he didn't say anything about accepting him as Savior.

To save time, I don't give a rat fart fuck if self righteous people like you think I'm a "real" Christian or not. That is not the topic of this thread.

How do you reconcile the Lord's Prayer with the claim we have to "accept Jesus" for forgiveness?

Oh, no, man. You've misunderstood ME, too!

I'm not trying to be self-righteous ~ just trying to help another Christian "figure it out." (I had sort of hoped/prayed that what i said would make sense to you, and that you'd understand.)

(And ^that's^ NOT me saying you're stoopid)

If YOU've accepted Christ, for who He is,

and if YOU know Him ~ and it sounds like you DO ~ you're Christian.

We ALL make mistakes, especially about what He's saying to us. I, personally, have found that if i'll listen to Him, and not let the "deeply religious" folks try to sway my thinking, i walk more in line with His path.

I was honestly trying to help, NOT put you down, in any way.

curve light has a filthy mouth that could use a soap washing!!!

Thank you for helping prove my point. Since it is an example of how we are to pray it is an example of how Jesus taught Forgiveness. Notice he didn't say anything about accepting him as Savior.

To save time, I don't give a rat fart fuck if self righteous people like you think I'm a "real" Christian or not. That is not the topic of this thread.

How do you reconcile the Lord's Prayer with the claim we have to "accept Jesus" for forgiveness?

Oh, no, man. You've misunderstood ME, too!

I'm not trying to be self-righteous ~ just trying to help another Christian "figure it out." (I had sort of hoped/prayed that what i said would make sense to you, and that you'd understand.)

(And ^that's^ NOT me saying you're stoopid)

If YOU've accepted Christ, for who He is,

and if YOU know Him ~ and it sounds like you DO ~ you're Christian.

We ALL make mistakes, especially about what He's saying to us. I, personally, have found that if i'll listen to Him, and not let the "deeply religious" folks try to sway my thinking, i walk more in line with His path.

I was honestly trying to help, NOT put you down, in any way.

Then I offer my apology for my response and thanks for the clarificarion.
 
Thank you for helping prove my point. Since it is an example of how we are to pray it is an example of how Jesus taught Forgiveness. Notice he didn't say anything about accepting him as Savior.

To save time, I don't give a rat fart fuck if self righteous people like you think I'm a "real" Christian or not. That is not the topic of this thread.

How do you reconcile the Lord's Prayer with the claim we have to "accept Jesus" for forgiveness?

Oh, no, man. You've misunderstood ME, too!

I'm not trying to be self-righteous ~ just trying to help another Christian "figure it out." (I had sort of hoped/prayed that what i said would make sense to you, and that you'd understand.)

(And ^that's^ NOT me saying you're stoopid)

If YOU've accepted Christ, for who He is,

and if YOU know Him ~ and it sounds like you DO ~ you're Christian.

We ALL make mistakes, especially about what He's saying to us. I, personally, have found that if i'll listen to Him, and not let the "deeply religious" folks try to sway my thinking, i walk more in line with His path.

I was honestly trying to help, NOT put you down, in any way.

curve light has a filthy mouth that could use a soap washing!!!

How do you reconcile the Lord's Prayer with the claim we have to "accept Jesus" for forgiveness?

I think your actual question has to do with:

How do i reconcile the Lord's prayer to the fact that the apostles WERE saved by that time ~

beyond a shadow of a doubt, from the moment they cast their lot with Jesus, they were saved. They loved Him enough to throw off their lives and follow Him, and they believed Him and believed IN Him. When they were worried, they went to Him with their questions. When they doubted, they did it to His face, admitting that they couldn't see the way, to Him. Judas was the one exception, and betrayed Jesus by NOT doing that, by thinking he could see things more clearly, by putting himself above his Lord. He was Never saved, because he never stopped thinking that the world represented more truth than God and Jesus, and fell for the lies.

There really isn't an answer to your first question, because the one doesn't correlate to the other. An example of how we are to pray doesn't really have a direct connection to how we are to be saved. If anything, i don't remember any admonitions regarding the fact that we HAD to pray in order to be saved ~ it is assumed that the natural offshoot of being saved is the desire for a more intimate relationship with God, and that would necessitate a need for communication.

It doesn't look like you've studied the synoptics very much because the apostles were constantly fighting against Jesus, were deceptive, rarely if ever understood his teachings and all ran like hell when Jesus got crucified. The claim they were already "saved" is not only false but irrelevent. Jesus stated the lord's prayer in front of hundreds of people and not simply the original 12.

The lord's prayer points out God is to forgive us as we forgive those who sin against us. No matter how you slice it, that is contradictory to the created theology that we are to "accept Christ" to be forgiven. By Jesus' own words we know he was not God because God is omniscient and Jesus was not omniscient. Jesus never said to accept him as savior. The nicene creed is a politically motivated twisting of cherry picked verses that really disrespect what Jesus taught.

Looks to me like the point of Jesus' instructions on how to receive forgiveness from God is centered on the community and that as people the way we reach the love of God is through forgiving each other. That requires a lot of really hard work. The "accept Jesus as Savior" routine is a convenience card packaged in a dangerous theology because it sets people up to create their own soapboxes instead of focusing on working with each other in communities. Jesus taught a much brighter path but unfortunately Christianity has become the very institution he fought against.
 

New Topics

Forum List

Back
Top