Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[CrimsonWhite]

You betray your ignorance there - you fail to understand morality.

You are a liar.

But take comfort - the convenience to vocalize your moral lie has been paid for in blood. Others stood strong so that you could remain weak.

Crimson served. DID YOU, muthafucka?

Careful...

Heed your own advice.

 

[catzmeow]

BTW, what is this job of yours that 'I wouldn't have the stones to do'?

Street-level work with violent gang members

 

[Iriemon]

Have you ever lost a child? If you answered 'no', then just try to imagine losing a child. It's difficult if you haven't, but just try. Now let's say it's your daughter, aged 6. She's dead. What would you have done to prevent the loss of her? If you found out later that her death could have been prevented with the right information, say waterboarding that doesn't kill anyone... Again, unless it's personal, it will be difficult to imagine.

Terrible.

So let's do away with jury trials, and courts for that matter, because we know that sometimes lets bad people go.

Let's allow random seize and seizure. That might prevent a death.

It's OK to torture other Americans. That might prevent a death.

That is where your logic goes.

Do you have any children? If you answered 'yes', do you love your children more than anything?

Yes I have and I love my children. Not more than anything. There are some principles that I would sacrifice my children for, and myself for first if possible.

Do you have children? Do you love them?

Would you do away with jury trials, and courts for that matter, if it might save your child?

Would you allow people to be nabbed off the street and locked away in secret forever if it might save your child?

Would you allow random seize and seizure, if it might save your child?

Would you allow Americans to be tortured, if it might save your child?

Would you sell out America if it might save your child?

 

[catzmeow]

Regarding sacrifice, and terrorism, you know not what you say here regarding me.

So please proceed with caution.

Gosh. I'm really scared.

That didn't stop you from talking out your ass to Crimson, did it?

You started things off on this footing, idiot. Read the fucking thread. You're the one who, out of the gates, called me a liar. So, get ahold of your dick, and man up.

 

[Sinatra]

Waterboarding is one thing.

This is entirely another... (graphic content warning)

THE DANIEL PEARL BEHEADING VIDEO

 

[WorldAHope]

These policies violate our 5, 6th and 8th amendments. We simply, as a country, cannot tolerate "slippage" in these areas.

It's like Pastor Niemoller's famous poem. I protect the rights even of those who I despise because I want to protect my free society. I want my children to live in a world where they are free to speak, where their rights against imprisonment without counsel are protected.


As Ben Frankly said:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


I work in a dangerous field. I've faced death.

One of my jobs, as an American, is to ensure that my country is handed down to my children in such a way that it is WORTH living in.

And, for the record, I am a hawkish conservative. AS A CONSERVATIVE, ONE OF MY PRIMARY GOALS IN LIFE IS TO PROTECT OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES.


Furthermore, if we torture our adversaries, we put our armed forces at serious risk of being tortured themselves. Nothing good can possibly come of this path.

I understand what you are saying here - I simply disagree with the premise that you would not make a choice to use whatever means necessary to save your family.

So where do you draw the line in coercing suspected crucial information out of a detained person ?
Can we sanction gangraping a detainee's wife to make her screams break him, so he 'might' give up the 'suspected' information?
Tear their grandparents' fingernails out, right in front of them? Hold a blade to their child's throat ?
Beat them and shock mercilessly, to the point of death, but not quite ?
Behead another detainee (innocent, no longer useful) in the same room, and let that detainee stay there alone with the bleeding headless body for a while to think it over ?
Iron Maiden ?
Thumb Screws? The Rack ? Drugs ?
Maybe we should pull out Saddam Hussein's textbooks on torture, give those techniques a try.

The argument "What would you do if your family was being held and you HAD to torture to save their lives ?" is a straw man, a red herring.
That is a non-existent hypothetical situation,
as accurate and as applicable as asking. "What if you were stranded on the surface of the Sun, and...."
How about this: "What would you do if you were arrested and abused by secret police in a foreign land?"
THAT is a reality, for far too many in this world.
We cannot condemn abuse of our citizens in foreign prisons if we too conduct those illegal actions.

The "What if YOUR family were strapped to a bomb, wouldn't you want the hero from "24" to TORTURE their location and the bomb codes out of the suspect he had captured "?
is 100% pure fiction.
For teenagers and tose that beliive in comic book characters.


Stick to the real world.

 

[catzmeow]

Heed your own advice.

God, you're such a bleeding heart commie pinko liberal, Crimson. Me, too.

Also, I hate guns, the military, cops, and the American flag.

 

[xsited1]

I understand your principles, but you're painting this issue with too big of a brush. I am talking about people picked up on the battlefield that appear to be fighting for the enemy.

... But I guarantee I have far more experience with murderers and thugs than you ever will.

So what is this job that you have that is so dangerous and why do you do it?

 

[catzmeow]

THE DANIEL PEARL BEHEADING VIDEO

Graphic, but fast. Frankly, there are worse ways to die.

 

[Valerie]

well you lefties have a choice, win by doing whatever it takes,, or letting your daughters live under Sharia law.. that's the choice.

They weren't gleaning actionable intelligence yet they kept doing it. Why?

That's punishment, not coercion. We have to uphold a better standard.

"Whatever it takes or else you'll live under Sharia law" is a lame fear tactic.

I love my country and my family has shed blood in every single war we've fought, so don't even try to tell me to move or whatever.

 

[Sinatra]

Regarding sacrifice, and terrorism, you know not what you say here regarding me.

So please proceed with caution.

Gosh. I'm really scared.

That didn't stop you from talking out your ass to Crimson, did it?

You started things off on this footing, idiot. Read the fucking thread. You're the one who, out of the gates, called me a liar. So, get ahold of your dick, and man up.

Your profanity only weakens you.

It is a too common trait of liars of convenience...

 

[catzmeow]

I understand your principles, but you're painting this issue with too big of a brush. I am talking about people picked up on the battlefield that appear to be fighting for the enemy.

... But I guarantee I have far more experience with murderers and thugs than you ever will.

So what is this job that you have that is so dangerous and why do you do it?

Asked and answered.

Why do I do it? Because it needs done.

 

[Sinatra]

Waterboarding is one thing.

This is entirely another... (graphic content warning)

THE DANIEL PEARL BEHEADING VIDEO

,,,

 

[xsited1]

BTW, what is this job of yours that 'I wouldn't have the stones to do'?

Street-level work with violent gang members

Why do you think I wouldn't have the 'stones' to do it?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Heed your own advice.

God, you're such a bleeding heart commie pinko liberal, Crimson. Me, too.

Also, I hate guns, the military, cops, and the American flag.

This isn't even a liberal/conservative issue. It is a moral one. Nobody seems to be asking the right question. If we prosecuted people in the past for these types of interrogation techniques, why is it that we all of a sudden feel the need to use them. Are we not hypocritical for using out of fear? Is it moral to torture out of fear? Because we sure aren't doing it out of neccesity.

 

[Ravi]

Heed your own advice.

God, you're such a bleeding heart commie pinko liberal, Crimson. Me, too.

Also, I hate guns, the military, cops, and the American flag.

Whenever you cons are rational you get called liberal. Doesn't say much for the dregs of the Republican party, does it.

 

[Iriemon]

I understand your principles, but you're painting this issue with too big of a brush. I am talking about people picked up on the battlefield that appear to be fighting for the enemy. You're extending this to every possible case. That's not what I'm talking about.

Let's say a suspected gang member is picked up and the cops think he has valuable information. Should he be tortured? Of course not. Now let's look at members of al-qaida - a known terrorist organization - who have been picked up on the battlefield who might have valuable information. Should they be tortured? It depends on how you define torture. Certainly, cutting off their finger is torture. Waterboarding is in the gray area. Again, if it's personal, most would not hesitate to give the order.

BTW, what is this job of yours that 'I wouldn't have the stones to do'?

Why is it not ok to torture an accused gang member but is ok to torture an accused terrorist?

Is it ok to torture an accused mass murderer? How about an accused rapist? Or an accused child molester?

 

[Sinatra]

BTW, what is this job of yours that 'I wouldn't have the stones to do'?

Street-level work with violent gang members

Why do you think I wouldn't have the 'stones' to do it?

She sounds like another tired version of a community organizer.

Perhaps I am wrong, but that would certainly appear to be the case.

 

[WillowTree]

well you lefties have a choice, win by doing whatever it takes,, or letting your daughters live under Sharia law.. that's the choice.

Are you calling me a lefty? HILARIOUS.

well if you aren't then choose. choose for your daughter, you gonna fight to win or does the Taliban get her? which?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Waterboarding is one thing.

This is entirely another... (graphic content warning)

THE DANIEL PEARL BEHEADING VIDEO

,,,

Off point. Shock value tactics won't work on me. Try forming and argument without usingthe word liar. Bet you can't do it.