Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[Indiana Oracle]

"To our intelligence men and women, may God be with you and keep you safe!"

I'll go along with that. The rest is just an political blather and making excuses for waterboarding like the Japanese in WWII, the Gestapo, and the Khmer Rouge.

Jeez, I remeber when Bush was president these same type of folks were chastizing people for not supporting the president's policies, saying it was un-American. Guess not when the shoe is on the other foot.

Actually he is not making excuses for anything. He strongly disagrees with The Prophet's publication of the CIA Guantanamo material and feels that those who support doing this / an adminstration who does this (party-neutral) contribute to puting our country in deeper danger than it needs to be.

 

[catzmeow]

I appreciate the insult, but forgive me if I don't believe you.

Then you don't know me. Simple as that.

Some principles do transcend personal obligations.

And, your reasoning is illogical.

Where do you stop, X? Do you deny dangerous gang members a trial by jury or right to counsel because they pose a threat to the community? Do you put people in jail without right to bond because you don't like their views?

Do you tell military service personnel that they don't really need to leave home and family because wars will fight themselves?

You so fear becoming a victim that you don't realize that you have embraced tyranny. You would create a world in which your children would not WANT to live.

: TELL me not, sweet, I am unkind
: That from nunnery
: Of thy chaste breast and quiet mind,
: To war and arms I fly.

: True, a mew mistress now I chase,
: The first foe in the field;
: And with a stronger faith embrace
: A sword, a horse, a shield.

: Yet this inconstancy is such
: As you too shall adore;
: I could not love thee, dear, so much,
: Loved I not honor more.: Richard Lovelace

I love my children enough to fight to ensure that this country is handed down to them, with all our rights and freedoms intact.

And, your idea that I don't understand the concept of losing a child or dealing with death is simply laughable. YOu don't know me.

I doubt you'd have the stones to do my job for a day.

I risked dying for many years, and depriving my children of a mother, for other people's kids. So that MY KIDS could live in a world where kids don't shoot each other in the streets.

My principles aren't just cozy words.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

NO, you would not.

You are a liar.

You may not know it - but you are lying.

I agree with her. Does that me a liar too? How a liberal? Maybe a communist?

We have prosecuted war criminals in the past for using these same methods. What does that say about us?

If you agree with her sentiment... yes, you too are lying.

If a bit of "torture" on an individual who was helping plan to kill your family could alter that outcome, you would be all for it.

And if someone had the power to obtain that information, and did not out of some obscure sense of being "better than that" you would be screaming against the injustice of the lost lives of your family.

Yes - you are lying because it is morally convenient to do so. That convenience was paid for in blood.

Feel free to enjoy it - but you sure as hell are not going to fool anyone by it.

Yes, you are lying.

Don't talk to me about paying for anything in blood. I know exactly where my stance is on this and no I would no be all for toruring anyone. It makes us no better than the shit stains that your tax dollars paid me to fight. Water boarding someone 30 times in month to extract info that he has already given is not what I fought for. It is not what I signed up for.

Moral choices are never convenient. That is where you show a strong aptitude for dumbassery here. Moral choices have never been convenient. Any thing paid for in blood is never convenient. Get off your high horse because your argument fails.

 

[catzmeow]

Let me just ask you this catz.. if we don't fight, if we aren't meaner than they are,, and they win,, what then? you think you've done the world a favor with your sacrifical children?

If we become what they are, out of fear, how have we won?

 

[sealybobo]

"To our intelligence men and women, may God be with you and keep you safe!"

I'll go along with that. The rest is just an political blather and making excuses for waterboarding like the Japanese in WWII, the Gestapo, and the Khmer Rouge.

Jeez, I remeber when Bush was president these same type of folks were chastizing people for not supporting the president's policies, saying it was un-American. Guess not when the shoe is on the other foot.

Actually he is not making excuses for anything. He strongly disagrees with The Prophet's publication of the CIA Guantanamo material and feels that those who support doing this / an adminstration who does this (party-neutral) contribute to puting our country in deeper danger than it needs to be.

The information was already public record. You right wingers seem to be really hard on Obama. Is it because he's black? Can't help but wonder.

PS. Are you worried that we are less safe or Cheney/Bush are less safe? I hope they go to jail.

Less safe.

Do you think it is still 2004? Is anyone buying this douche bags bullshit?

 

[Sinatra]

I agree with her. Does that me a liar too? How a liberal? Maybe a communist?

We have prosecuted war criminals in the past for using these same methods. What does that say about us?

If you agree with her sentiment... yes, you too are lying.

If a bit of "torture" on an individual who was helping plan to kill your family could alter that outcome, you would be all for it.

And if someone had the power to obtain that information, and did not out of some obscure sense of being "better than that" you would be screaming against the injustice of the lost lives of your family.

Yes - you are lying because it is morally convenient to do so. That convenience was paid for in blood.

Feel free to enjoy it - but you sure as hell are not going to fool anyone by it.

Yes, you are lying.

Don't talk to me about paying for anything in blood. I know exactly where my stance is on this and no I would no be all for toruring anyone. It makes us no better than the shit stains that your tax dollars paid me to fight. Water boarding someone 30 times in month to extract info that he has already given is not what I fought for. It is not what I signed up for.

Moral choices are never convenient. That is where you show a strong aptitude for dumbassery here. Moral choices have never been convenient. Any thing paid for in blood is never convenient. Get off your high horse because your argument fails.

You betray your ignorance there - you fail to understand morality.

You are a liar.

But take comfort - the convenience to vocalize your moral lie has been paid for in blood. Others stood strong so that you could remain weak.

 

[catzmeow]

You betray your ignorance there - you fail to understand morality.

You are a liar.

But take comfort - the convenience to vocalize your moral lie has been paid for in blood. Others stood strong so that you could remain weak.

Crimson served. DID YOU, muthafucka?

 

[Sinatra]

You betray your ignorance there - you fail to understand morality.

You are a liar.

But take comfort - the convenience to vocalize your moral lie has been paid for in blood. Others stood strong so that you could remain weak.

Crimson served. DID YOU, muthafucka?

Careful...

 

[Valerie]

If you lost a loved one to a terrorist attack and found out later that it could have been avoided had the CIA obtained information using waterboarding, you would care.

You're mistaken. Some things matter more than individual lives. Losing one of the most crucial aspects of our Americanness, for instance. WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT.

If terrorism causes us to lose our souls, that will be our greatest loss.

There is also the issue of whether or not the tactics were working after many unsuccessful attempts and more specifically if they were gleaning "actionable intelligence".

I read this article yesterday:

The news that we used waterboarding a total of 266 times on two terror suspects has rocked the country.

C.I.A. interrogators used waterboarding, the near-drowning technique that top Obama administration officials have described as illegal torture, 266 times on two key prisoners from Al Qaeda, far more than had been previously reported.

MSNBC's military analyst retired Col. Jack Jacobs said that it was an astounding number.

Norah: Are you surprised by the number, two hundred and sixty six time on two terrorism suspects?

Jacobs: It's kind of astounding isn't it? You think after one or two times it didn't work, you wouldn't keep trying. Clearly, if you're doing it that many times it should be obvious to the casual observer that the technique is not working. Usually the information that you can get that's useful, you can get with very easy techniques. I've been in combat plenty of times, captured lots of bad guys and invariably got lots of information out of them using cigarettes, medical care and food. Most of the stuff that you're going to get when you give people a bad time, most of it is going to be information that they're going to give just to shut you up or to get you to stop doing what you're doing to them.
Col. Jack Jacobs on torture: I got more out of using cigarettes, medical care and food | Crooks and Liars

 

[Ravi]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

It probably isn't effective anyway, just a bunch of jumped up violence freaks getting their jollies and being able to justify it to themselves.

 

[xsited1]

I appreciate the insult, but forgive me if I don't believe you.

Then you don't know me. Simple as that.

Some principles do transcend personal obligations.

And, your reasoning is illogical.

Where do you stop, X? Do you deny dangerous gang members a trial by jury or right to counsel because they pose a threat to the community? Do you put people in jail without right to bond because you don't like their views?

Do you tell military service personnel that they don't really need to leave home and family because wars will fight themselves?

You so fear becoming a victim that you don't realize that you have embraced tyranny. You would create a world in which your children would not WANT to live.

: TELL me not, sweet, I am unkind
: That from nunnery
: Of thy chaste breast and quiet mind,
: To war and arms I fly.

: True, a mew mistress now I chase,
: The first foe in the field;
: And with a stronger faith embrace
: A sword, a horse, a shield.

: Yet this inconstancy is such
: As you too shall adore;
: I could not love thee, dear, so much,
: Loved I not honor more.: Richard Lovelace

I love my children enough to fight to ensure that this country is handed down to them, with all our rights and freedoms intact.

And, your idea that I don't understand the concept of losing a child or dealing with death is simply laughable. YOu don't know me.

I doubt you'd have the stones to do my job for a day.

I risked dying for many years, and depriving my children of a mother, for other people's kids. So that MY KIDS could live in a world where kids don't shoot each other in the streets.

My principles aren't just cozy words.

I understand your principles, but you're painting this issue with too big of a brush. I am talking about people picked up on the battlefield that appear to be fighting for the enemy. You're extending this to every possible case. That's not what I'm talking about.

Let's say a suspected gang member is picked up and the cops think he has valuable information. Should he be tortured? Of course not. Now let's look at members of al-qaida - a known terrorist organization - who have been picked up on the battlefield who might have valuable information. Should they be tortured? It depends on how you define torture. Certainly, cutting off their finger is torture. Waterboarding is in the gray area. Again, if it's personal, most would not hesitate to give the order.

BTW, what is this job of yours that 'I wouldn't have the stones to do'?

 

[catzmeow]

Careful...

Or what, pissant?

I worked on the thin blue line. I understand death, pain and criminals. I'd love to compare cojones with you, internet schmuck.

 

[WillowTree]

well you lefties have a choice, win by doing whatever it takes,, or letting your daughters live under Sharia law.. that's the choice.

 

[Newby]

Let me just ask you this catz.. if we don't fight, if we aren't meaner than they are,, and they win,, what then? you think you've done the world a favor with your sacrifical children?

If we become what they are, out of fear, how have we won?

Water boarding is 'becoming what they are'? I don't think so. To sacrifice lives to keep your moral superiority in tact seems like an extremely high cost. Especially when what we're talking about here is causing discomfort and not killing or maiming or permanenetly harming anyone.

How is it that the left's morals are always to be followed and legislated, but when the right talks about morals, then we're 'pushing our views' on everyone else? You'd advocate for the right for a woman to chose to kill her child, but your morals are well in tact when it comes to the treatment of terrorists when it might mean the lives of innocent people. Why is that?

Your use of the 'moral superiority' reasoning behind your attack of waterboarding is nothing more than partisanship. If Obama's administration used the same tactics, you'd be in here defending it to the death.

 

[Valerie]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

It probably isn't effective anyway, just a bunch of jumped up violence freaks getting their jollies and being able to justify it to themselves.

Yes, and like catzmeow said, WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT.

 

[Sinatra]

Careful...

Or what, pissant?

I worked on the thin blue line. I understand death, pain and criminals. I'd love to compare cojones with you, internet schmuck.

Regarding sacrifice, and terrorism, you know not what you say here regarding me.

So please proceed with caution.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

If you agree with her sentiment... yes, you too are lying.

If a bit of "torture" on an individual who was helping plan to kill your family could alter that outcome, you would be all for it.

And if someone had the power to obtain that information, and did not out of some obscure sense of being "better than that" you would be screaming against the injustice of the lost lives of your family.

Yes - you are lying because it is morally convenient to do so. That convenience was paid for in blood.

Feel free to enjoy it - but you sure as hell are not going to fool anyone by it.

Yes, you are lying.

Don't talk to me about paying for anything in blood. I know exactly where my stance is on this and no I would no be all for toruring anyone. It makes us no better than the shit stains that your tax dollars paid me to fight. Water boarding someone 30 times in month to extract info that he has already given is not what I fought for. It is not what I signed up for.

Moral choices are never convenient. That is where you show a strong aptitude for dumbassery here. Moral choices have never been convenient. Any thing paid for in blood is never convenient. Get off your high horse because your argument fails.

You betray your ignorance there - you fail to understand morality.

You are a liar.

But take comfort - the convenience to vocalize your moral lie has been paid for in blood. Others stood strong so that you could remain weak.

Yeah, yeah. You just made the douchebag list. Congrats.

 

[catzmeow]

I understand your principles, but you're painting this issue with too big of a brush. I am talking about people picked up on the battlefield that appear to be fighting for the enemy.

People that appear to be fighting for the enemy have to be treated in EXACTLY THE WAY we want our military personnel treated in the hands of OUR ENEMIES.

Otherwise, the line between us and them becomes irreparably blurred.

It's funny how military service personnel almost always get that these issues are crucial, and chickenhawks don't.

I'm no pacifist. Some people need killing. I'll never argue that. I get that Al Quaeda are bad guys. But I guarantee I have far more experience with murderers and thugs than you ever will.

 

[catzmeow]

well you lefties have a choice, win by doing whatever it takes,, or letting your daughters live under Sharia law.. that's the choice.

Are you calling me a lefty? HILARIOUS.

 

[WillowTree]

Let me just ask you this catz.. if we don't fight, if we aren't meaner than they are,, and they win,, what then? you think you've done the world a favor with your sacrifical children?

If we become what they are, out of fear, how have we won?

so it's your decision to put the world at the mercy of the terrorists.? Not a good choice in my opinion.