"Centrist" Dems trying to push their weight

[alan1]

Well, at some point, I'll 'splain it again, 'cause they're already involved -- maybe not in YOURS -- and it makes a whole lot more sense, since they're determined to BE involved to do the RIGHT WAY.

Or does it make more sense to try and keep them less involved?
I don't want some government bureaucrat getting involved in my personal health care decisions.
Look at it this way, if I was determined to rape you, would you want to be raped in the RIGHT WAY?

Not a good analogy. Rape is a crime.

Health care is a need, regardless of who pays. I certainly understand the government has no credibility with respect to a track record for handling much of anything. That's the problem in a nutshell. You've got all these bureaucrats who don't know shit about health administration trying to deal with the entitlement programs we already have, trying to make a deal with insurers and the pharmaceutical companies, trying to figure out how to protect physicians who are getting killed with malpractice insurance because because they refuse to enact tort reform, and trying to figure out how to ensure that everyone has access to the health care system.

It really doesn't have anything to do with your personal decision making. It has to do with creating an efficient system from which everyone has a choice, and in which there are no overlaps or gaps. It isn't as difficult as everyone would like you to believe it is -- they just don't know how to do it.

In my opinion, the analogy is somewhat related because almost every time the federal government gets involved in something I feel like I'm being raped.

You are correct, the government (especially federal) has a crappy track record when they get involved in trying to fix something. War on poverty---fail, War on drugs---fail, improving the education system(federal involvement)---fail, social security----fail.
Now why would I want them involved in my personal health care? I prefer they didn't get the opportunity to fail at that as well.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Well I'm stubborn, I don't want the government involved in my health care one iota.

So you would abolish the FDA and any regulations regarding the standards of cleanliness in hospitals and the accreditation of doctors?

Well gee... Let's see... They're doctors... they specialize in the treatment of disease...

SO... with that said, I wonder what the reason would be for 'Government mandated: Standard of cleanliness' in a Hospital...'

ROFL... Again we find a would-be moderate who comes to inform us that ONLY THE GOVERNMENT CAN MAINTAIN HEALTH STANDARDS... and that those who operate such facilities are simply not qualified to know what such standards should be, or how to maintain such... The next time you see this member, you will probably find her crying about the cost of going to the Hospital which is saddled with maintaining the "High Government Standards of Cleanliness" which require 'special this and Expensive THAT and PILES of paperwork to prove compliance and tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in regulatory fees which must be paid, BEFORE ONE MOP SLIDES OVER A SINGLE TILE...

As to Accrediting worthiness as a physician... one would think that such would fall to the schools who provide for such... They're in that business... one would think that they wouldn't need someone to tell them what is necessary to establish medical worthiness...

Yet, our would-be moderate finds that ONLY the long arm of government can assure such... when such is not assured today, despite A MASSIVE Bureaucracy designed for nothing else.

The fact is that the FDA doesn't assure food safety... the government doesn't assure professional integrity or anything of the kind... what they DO is suck up MASSIVE amounts of tax payer money coming up with ways which they feel provides them with a reason to exist and grow exponentially in terms of size and power with the election of every leftist administration.

And as noted above, the next time we see this member, she'll likely be crying about the RIDICULOUS amount of money it takes to become a Doctor and the CRIME of forcing these brilliant kids to saddle themselves with hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans before they even see their first patient...

All of which falls under "UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES" of lending credence to the feminized idiocy of the ideological left.

Publius.

Let me clue you in.

You are on the irrelevant wing of the political spectrum now. I've included all of your post that is of interest to the general public.

Wow... Most Fascist tend to want to conceal their disregard for common sense... But perhaps the Goose Stepping Audacious Hopers now feel that they're sufficiently entrenched that there's no real reason to pretend anymore...

In an respect, the net effect of Her Toro's response is that she simply has no means to answer my position beyond the base understanding that she erroneously feels that the election of 08 was a 're-making of the US Constitutional Republic'; meaning that what happened in 08 was not merely the changing of the guard, wherein one US Executive who has sworn to uphold the existing US Constitution is replaced by another US Exeucitve who swears to uphold the Existing US Constitution; that what happened in 08 is that A BRAND NEW REPUBLIC WAS FORMED...

That the OLD Constitution has been scrapped and that the will of the NEW REGIME, IN AND OF ITSELF, has replaced the old; and the OLD RULES ARE OUT AND THE NEW RULES ARE IN!

That the US is now something more akin to France...

Bad news here Her Toro... The Old Rules are still in place... all that has happened is that the accountability for trying to change the old rules by subversive measures hasn't come to pass...

As i've said many times friends... this will not end well.

What ya have in Toro's comments is simply a sign that she feels that we, The Americans, no longer have a say and that the US Constitution is passe and a new order has set aside our rights...

That she can't speak to common sense, where simple common sense refutes everything she stands for, is simply proof if the indisputable variety that she's complicit in this subversion and as such will be held account when such an accounting comes to pass.

Which is the cool thing about Text forums... they provide a lovely written record; which rests upon a veil which is easily pushed back to discover the identities of the would-be anonymous subversive.

But with all that said... Your concession is duly noted Toro, and as always, it is summarily accepted...

 

[Sinatra]

Meanwhile, at the latest Hope n Change community organizers meeting, Acorn member Franzi Mendoza comes up with a great idea on how to merge the Latino and Gay voting Blocs for the upcoming 2010 Steal the Vote campaign...

 

[DamnYankee]

Or does it make more sense to try and keep them less involved?
I don't want some government bureaucrat getting involved in my personal health care decisions.
Look at it this way, if I was determined to rape you, would you want to be raped in the RIGHT WAY?

Not a good analogy. Rape is a crime.

Health care is a need, regardless of who pays. I certainly understand the government has no credibility with respect to a track record for handling much of anything. That's the problem in a nutshell. You've got all these bureaucrats who don't know shit about health administration trying to deal with the entitlement programs we already have, trying to make a deal with insurers and the pharmaceutical companies, trying to figure out how to protect physicians who are getting killed with malpractice insurance because because they refuse to enact tort reform, and trying to figure out how to ensure that everyone has access to the health care system.

It really doesn't have anything to do with your personal decision making. It has to do with creating an efficient system from which everyone has a choice, and in which there are no overlaps or gaps. It isn't as difficult as everyone would like you to believe it is -- they just don't know how to do it.

In my opinion, the analogy is somewhat related because almost every time the federal government gets involved in something I feel like I'm being raped.

You are correct, the government (especially federal) has a crappy track record when they get involved in trying to fix something. War on poverty---fail, War on drugs---fail, improving the education system(federal involvement)---fail, social security----fail.
Now why would I want them involved in my personal health care? I prefer they didn't get the opportunity to fail at that as well.

Like I said, I'd be just as happy if they weren't involved 'cause they don't know what the fuck they're doing and they seem to be reluctant... no, make that unwilling to consult with/hire (appoint) those who do desite their determination to continue their involvement!

Do you recall Obama's "shout out" to the public for input on "reform" and suggestions for "tweaking" his health care proposal? Supposed to be organized kinda like "town hall" style brainstorming sessions, so I fire off an email to the WH to let them know I'm interested in participating, since I obviously have some expertise. Already told the board, somewhere else here, what response I received -- I got on his fucking email list.

Now maybe I'm crazy, but maybe if enough people took an interest, and bombarded the powers that be with enough feedback, they'd get the message that they're doing it wrong and would stop and ask someone how to do it right. Then again....

 

[DamnYankee]

Well gee... Let's see... They're doctors... they specialize in the treatment of disease...

SO... with that said, I wonder what the reason would be for 'Government mandated: Standard of cleanliness' in a Hospital...'

ROFL... Again we find a would-be moderate who comes to inform us that ONLY THE GOVERNMENT CAN MAINTAIN HEALTH STANDARDS... and that those who operate such facilities are simply not qualified to know what such standards should be, or how to maintain such... The next time you see this member, you will probably find her crying about the cost of going to the Hospital which is saddled with maintaining the "High Government Standards of Cleanliness" which require 'special this and Expensive THAT and PILES of paperwork to prove compliance and tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in regulatory fees which must be paid, BEFORE ONE MOP SLIDES OVER A SINGLE TILE...

As to Accrediting worthiness as a physician... one would think that such would fall to the schools who provide for such... They're in that business... one would think that they wouldn't need someone to tell them what is necessary to establish medical worthiness...

Yet, our would-be moderate finds that ONLY the long arm of government can assure such... when such is not assured today, despite A MASSIVE Bureaucracy designed for nothing else.

The fact is that the FDA doesn't assure food safety... the government doesn't assure professional integrity or anything of the kind... what they DO is suck up MASSIVE amounts of tax payer money coming up with ways which they feel provides them with a reason to exist and grow exponentially in terms of size and power with the election of every leftist administration.

And as noted above, the next time we see this member, she'll likely be crying about the RIDICULOUS amount of money it takes to become a Doctor and the CRIME of forcing these brilliant kids to saddle themselves with hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans before they even see their first patient...

All of which falls under "UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES" of lending credence to the feminized idiocy of the ideological left.

Publius.

Let me clue you in.

You are on the irrelevant wing of the political spectrum now. I've included all of your post that is of interest to the general public.

Wow... Most Fascist tend to want to conceal their disregard for common sense... But perhaps the Goose Stepping Audacious Hopers now feel that they're sufficiently entrenched that there's no real reason to pretend anymore...

In an respect, the net effect of Her Toro's response is that she simply has no means to answer my position beyond the base understanding that she erroneously feels that the election of 08 was a 're-making of the US Constitutional Republic'; meaning that what happened in 08 was not merely the changing of the guard, wherein one US Executive who has sworn to uphold the existing US Constitution is replaced by another US Exeucitve who swears to uphold the Existing US Constitution; that what happened in 08 is that A BRAND NEW REPUBLIC WAS FORMED...

That the OLD Constitution has been scrapped and that the will of the NEW REGIME, IN AND OF ITSELF, has replaced the old; and the OLD RULES ARE OUT AND THE NEW RULES ARE IN!

That the US is now something more akin to France...

Bad news here Her Toro... The Old Rules are still in place... all that has happened is that the accountability for trying to change the old rules by subversive measures hasn't come to pass...

As i've said many times friends... this will not end well.

What ya have in Toro's comments is simply a sign that she feels that we, The Americans, no longer have a say and that the US Constitution is passe and a new order has set aside our rights...

That she can't speak to common sense, where simple common sense refutes everything she stands for, is simply proof if the indisputable variety that she's complicit in this subversion and as such will be held account when such an accounting comes to pass.

Which is the cool thing about Text forums... they provide a lovely written record; which rests upon a veil which is easily pushed back to discover the identities of the would-be anonymous subversive.

But with all that said... Your concession is duly noted Toro, and as always, it is summarily accepted...

What I find interesting is an apparent need to talk down to those you are trying to convince.

 

[Toro]

What I find interesting is an apparent need to talk down to those you are trying to convince.

Oh, it's just Publius. Most of us who have been here for awhile don't pay him much heed because once you've read one of his posts, you've read them all. For example, I didn't read his rebuttal to my post. I pretty much know what he is going to say, and it just gives me a headache.

Oh wait, my eyes just glazed over the bottom of PI's post, and he says that I am conceding the argument. At this point, it is appropriate to post this video, which pretty much typlifies how all debates end with PI.

[youtube]dhRUe-gz690[/youtube]

 

[Sinatra]

What I find interesting is an apparent need to talk down to those you are trying to convince.

Oh, it's just Publius. Most of us who have been here for awhile don't pay him much heed because once you've read one of his posts, you've read them all. For example, I didn't read his rebuttal to my post. I pretty much know what he is going to say, and it just gives me a headache.

Oh wait, my eyes just glazed over the bottom of PI's post, and he says that I am conceding the argument. At this point, it is appropriate to post this video, which pretty much typlifies how all debates end with PI.

[youtube]dhRUe-gz690[/youtube]

 

[Toro]

Tut, tut.

I'll skewer your ass if I'm in the mood. But for now, I am feeling pretty good.

 

[alan1]

Not a good analogy. Rape is a crime.

Health care is a need, regardless of who pays. I certainly understand the government has no credibility with respect to a track record for handling much of anything. That's the problem in a nutshell. You've got all these bureaucrats who don't know shit about health administration trying to deal with the entitlement programs we already have, trying to make a deal with insurers and the pharmaceutical companies, trying to figure out how to protect physicians who are getting killed with malpractice insurance because because they refuse to enact tort reform, and trying to figure out how to ensure that everyone has access to the health care system.

It really doesn't have anything to do with your personal decision making. It has to do with creating an efficient system from which everyone has a choice, and in which there are no overlaps or gaps. It isn't as difficult as everyone would like you to believe it is -- they just don't know how to do it.

In my opinion, the analogy is somewhat related because almost every time the federal government gets involved in something I feel like I'm being raped.

You are correct, the government (especially federal) has a crappy track record when they get involved in trying to fix something. War on poverty---fail, War on drugs---fail, improving the education system(federal involvement)---fail, social security----fail.
Now why would I want them involved in my personal health care? I prefer they didn't get the opportunity to fail at that as well.

Like I said, I'd be just as happy if they weren't involved 'cause they don't know what the fuck they're doing and they seem to be reluctant... no, make that unwilling to consult with/hire (appoint) those who do desite their determination to continue their involvement!

Do you recall Obama's "shout out" to the public for input on "reform" and suggestions for "tweaking" his health care proposal? Supposed to be organized kinda like "town hall" style brainstorming sessions, so I fire off an email to the WH to let them know I'm interested in participating, since I obviously have some expertise. Already told the board, somewhere else here, what response I received -- I got on his fucking email list.

Now maybe I'm crazy, but maybe if enough people took an interest, and bombarded the powers that be with enough feedback, they'd get the message that they're doing it wrong and would stop and ask someone how to do it right. Then again....

Yep, you are crazy if you have that much faith in government.

 

[DamnYankee]

What I find interesting is an apparent need to talk down to those you are trying to convince.

Oh, it's just Publius. Most of us who have been here for awhile don't pay him much heed because once you've read one of his posts, you've read them all. For example, I didn't read his rebuttal to my post. I pretty much know what he is going to say, and it just gives me a headache.

Read one of his posts a week or so ago, and repeated the same word at least 20 times. I understand perfectly.

 

[DamnYankee]

In my opinion, the analogy is somewhat related because almost every time the federal government gets involved in something I feel like I'm being raped.

You are correct, the government (especially federal) has a crappy track record when they get involved in trying to fix something. War on poverty---fail, War on drugs---fail, improving the education system(federal involvement)---fail, social security----fail.
Now why would I want them involved in my personal health care? I prefer they didn't get the opportunity to fail at that as well.

Like I said, I'd be just as happy if they weren't involved 'cause they don't know what the fuck they're doing and they seem to be reluctant... no, make that unwilling to consult with/hire (appoint) those who do desite their determination to continue their involvement!

Do you recall Obama's "shout out" to the public for input on "reform" and suggestions for "tweaking" his health care proposal? Supposed to be organized kinda like "town hall" style brainstorming sessions, so I fire off an email to the WH to let them know I'm interested in participating, since I obviously have some expertise. Already told the board, somewhere else here, what response I received -- I got on his fucking email list.

Now maybe I'm crazy, but maybe if enough people took an interest, and bombarded the powers that be with enough feedback, they'd get the message that they're doing it wrong and would stop and ask someone how to do it right. Then again....

Yep, you are crazy if you have that much faith in government.

I was thinkin' I was crazy to have that much faith in PEOPLE.

 

[alan1]

Like I said, I'd be just as happy if they weren't involved 'cause they don't know what the fuck they're doing and they seem to be reluctant... no, make that unwilling to consult with/hire (appoint) those who do desite their determination to continue their involvement!

Do you recall Obama's "shout out" to the public for input on "reform" and suggestions for "tweaking" his health care proposal? Supposed to be organized kinda like "town hall" style brainstorming sessions, so I fire off an email to the WH to let them know I'm interested in participating, since I obviously have some expertise. Already told the board, somewhere else here, what response I received -- I got on his fucking email list.

Now maybe I'm crazy, but maybe if enough people took an interest, and bombarded the powers that be with enough feedback, they'd get the message that they're doing it wrong and would stop and ask someone how to do it right. Then again....

Yep, you are crazy if you have that much faith in government.

I was thinkin' I was crazy to have that much faith in PEOPLE.

Never underestimate the power of governmnet to completely fuck up what the people asked for.

 

[DamnYankee]

Never underestimate the power of governmnet to completely fuck up what the people asked for.

I do not. I have a very clear recollection of the Immigration Reform Bill battle, and its resurrection from the dead. So my question would be, whose will is the strongest? Who is the employer and who is the employee? Why do we let them forget that?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Publius.

Let me clue you in.

You are on the irrelevant wing of the political spectrum now. I've included all of your post that is of interest to the general public.

Wow... Most Fascist tend to want to conceal their disregard for common sense... But perhaps the Goose Stepping Audacious Hopers now feel that they're sufficiently entrenched that there's no real reason to pretend anymore...

In an respect, the net effect of Her Toro's response is that she simply has no means to answer my position beyond the base understanding that she erroneously feels that the election of 08 was a 're-making of the US Constitutional Republic'; meaning that what happened in 08 was not merely the changing of the guard, wherein one US Executive who has sworn to uphold the existing US Constitution is replaced by another US Exeucitve who swears to uphold the Existing US Constitution; that what happened in 08 is that A BRAND NEW REPUBLIC WAS FORMED...

That the OLD Constitution has been scrapped and that the will of the NEW REGIME, IN AND OF ITSELF, has replaced the old; and the OLD RULES ARE OUT AND THE NEW RULES ARE IN!

That the US is now something more akin to France...

Bad news here Her Toro... The Old Rules are still in place... all that has happened is that the accountability for trying to change the old rules by subversive measures hasn't come to pass...

As i've said many times friends... this will not end well.

What ya have in Toro's comments is simply a sign that she feels that we, The Americans, no longer have a say and that the US Constitution is passe and a new order has set aside our rights...

That she can't speak to common sense, where simple common sense refutes everything she stands for, is simply proof if the indisputable variety that she's complicit in this subversion and as such will be held account when such an accounting comes to pass.

Which is the cool thing about Text forums... they provide a lovely written record; which rests upon a veil which is easily pushed back to discover the identities of the would-be anonymous subversive.

But with all that said... Your concession is duly noted Toro, and as always, it is summarily accepted...

What I find interesting is an apparent need to talk down to those you are trying to convince.

Sis, if you feel that I'm talking down to you... you can rest assured that YOUR perspective is the issue... and I have never tried to convince a leftist, centrist moderate independent of anything; my position is that if you were bright enough to understand; ya would.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

What I find interesting is an apparent need to talk down to those you are trying to convince.

Oh, it's just Publius. Most of us who have been here for awhile don't pay him much heed because once you've read one of his posts, you've read them all. For example, I didn't read his rebuttal to my post. I pretty much know what he is going to say, and it just gives me a headache.

Oh wait, my eyes just glazed over the bottom of PI's post, and he says that I am conceding the argument. At this point, it is appropriate to post this video, which pretty much typlifies how all debates end with PI.

[youtube]dhRUe-gz690[/youtube]

Let the record reflect that the Left, as demonstrated by the above response offered by this feminized leftist male; would now like to change the understanding of debate to reflect the idea that where she fails to respond to a given argument with a lucid, cogent, well reasoned, intellectually sound, logically valid argument; that this should in NO WAY be judged as a failure on their part, or of the stated position or as having in ANY WAY, undermined their veracity, or as something which may have otherwise discredited their 'feelings...' on that issue.

Which of course lowers the threshold of responsibility on their part down to being present... which is a great idea, if one can pull it off... and steadfastly in sync with the left's general theme of stripping any concept of a viable standard from EVERY facet of civilization...

 

[sealybobo]

make sure the public option pays for itself through premiums and co-payments and doesn't receive any money through tax revenue..." ???

I think the public option will use tax revenues. If you want to opt in, you can, just like with public schools, but if you want your own private/really expensive healthcare, then you still have to pay taxes to help fund the public plan. That way everyone is covered.

 

[sealybobo]

Yep, you are crazy if you have that much faith in government.

I was thinkin' I was crazy to have that much faith in PEOPLE.

Never underestimate the power of governmnet to completely fuck up what the people asked for.

Well when you have 100 "centrist" democrats, which basically means 100 corrupt or frightened democrats that are afraid the healtcare insurance providers will take them down in the 2010/2012 elections if they back change, then of course reform is going to be impossible.

So its up to the people who vote in those states to call and push for a public plan/single payer. If you don't, then don't expect reform, and don't blame Obama or the Dems. Blame yourself.

They'll do it if enough of us demand it.