CDC: Accidental car deaths 2013...35,369. Accidental gun deaths 2013...505.

[Brain357]

There are only about 8,500 homicides each year. Gun owners are a minority of the population. So the most lives that could possibly be saved by defense with a gun is well under 8,500.

The more likely number of defenses each year is much closer to 100k per the NCVS.

What really makes you safer is not being involved in criminal activity.

Not going to disagree about not being involved in criminal activity, but sometimes criminal activity shows up unsolicited.

Anti-second amendment folks like the small numbers, pro-second like the huge numbers...I choose a reasonable number far below the average.

And that a paltry 2% of defensive firearm uses saved a life is extremely conservative.

2% might be conservative, but 2% of what number? I say 108k by the NCVS is the most accurate. That means about 2100. Now based on the 800k that would be 16,000. Well it can't be 16k because we know there are only 8,500 homicides and gun owners are a minority of the population. Gun owners would have to be a magnet for homicide if they were defending twice as many as are occurring. A gun owner would be twice as likely to have somebody attempt to kill them. I see no reason why that would be the case. And gun defenders are often themselves killed. So the number has to be under 8,500 which is one reason I believe the 108k is a far more accurate number for DGUs.

Please explain how a non gun study is more accurate than an actual gun study that actually asks about using a gun for self defense...

The NCVS is not a gun study and never directly asks about guns...at all...in the entire study......

I already have in a few ways. First gun studies will have way more false positives. Gun studies do not agree. Every time they do a study they arrive at very different numbers. Clearly they are not accurate. If we use the 2.5 million then just about every gun owner would have had a DGU the last 30 years. Clearly that isn't true as owners with a DGU are rare. If we used Missourians conservative 2% that would mean there are 50,000 lives saved each year. Given gun owners are a minority and only 11 million carry that number is completely insane. There can't more than 5X as many homicides defended than are committed.

 

[2aguy]

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[2aguy]

Why the NCVS is not a gun study....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

Why is the NCVS an unacceptable estimate of annual DGU's? Dr. Kleck states, "Equally important, those who take the NCVS-based estimates seriously have consistently ignored the most pronounced limitations of the NCVS for estimating DGU frequency. The NCVS is a non-anonymous national survey conducted by a branch of the federal government, the U.S. Bureau of the Census. Interviewers identify themselves to respondents as federal government employees, even displaying, in face-to-face contacts, an identification card with a badge. Respondents are told that the interviews are being conducted on behalf of the U.S. Department of Justice, the law enforcement branch of the federal government. As a preliminary to asking questions about crime victimization experiences, interviewers establish the address, telephone number, and full names of all occupants, age twelve and over, in each household they contact. In short, it is made very clear to respondents that they are, in effect, speaking to a law enforcement arm of the federal government, whose employees know exactly who the respondents and their family members are, where they live, and how they can be recontacted."

"It is not hard for gun-using victims interviewed in the NCVS to withhold information about their use of a gun,

especially since they are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.

They are asked only general questions about whether they did anything to protect themselves.

In short, respondents are merely give the opportunity to volunteer the information that they have used a gun defensively. All it takes for a respondents to conceal a DGU is to simply refrain from mentioning it, i.e., to leave it out of what may be an otherwise accurate and complete account of the crime incident."

 

[Brain357]

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

Look at how highly inaccurate they are. 500k to 3.6 million? There are a lot of flaws to arrive at such varied totals.

 

[Brain357]

Why the NCVS is not a gun study....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

Why is the NCVS an unacceptable estimate of annual DGU's? Dr. Kleck states, "Equally important, those who take the NCVS-based estimates seriously have consistently ignored the most pronounced limitations of the NCVS for estimating DGU frequency. The NCVS is a non-anonymous national survey conducted by a branch of the federal government, the U.S. Bureau of the Census. Interviewers identify themselves to respondents as federal government employees, even displaying, in face-to-face contacts, an identification card with a badge. Respondents are told that the interviews are being conducted on behalf of the U.S. Department of Justice, the law enforcement branch of the federal government. As a preliminary to asking questions about crime victimization experiences, interviewers establish the address, telephone number, and full names of all occupants, age twelve and over, in each household they contact. In short, it is made very clear to respondents that they are, in effect, speaking to a law enforcement arm of the federal government, whose employees know exactly who the respondents and their family members are, where they live, and how they can be recontacted."

"It is not hard for gun-using victims interviewed in the NCVS to withhold information about their use of a gun,

especially since they are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.

They are asked only general questions about whether they did anything to protect themselves.

In short, respondents are merely give the opportunity to volunteer the information that they have used a gun defensively. All it takes for a respondents to conceal a DGU is to simply refrain from mentioning it, i.e., to leave it out of what may be an otherwise accurate and complete account of the crime incident."

Given how gun studies arrive at so vastly different answers it seems not being a gun study is a good thing.

 

[2aguy]

Why the NCVS is not a gun study....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

Why is the NCVS an unacceptable estimate of annual DGU's? Dr. Kleck states, "Equally important, those who take the NCVS-based estimates seriously have consistently ignored the most pronounced limitations of the NCVS for estimating DGU frequency. The NCVS is a non-anonymous national survey conducted by a branch of the federal government, the U.S. Bureau of the Census. Interviewers identify themselves to respondents as federal government employees, even displaying, in face-to-face contacts, an identification card with a badge. Respondents are told that the interviews are being conducted on behalf of the U.S. Department of Justice, the law enforcement branch of the federal government. As a preliminary to asking questions about crime victimization experiences, interviewers establish the address, telephone number, and full names of all occupants, age twelve and over, in each household they contact. In short, it is made very clear to respondents that they are, in effect, speaking to a law enforcement arm of the federal government, whose employees know exactly who the respondents and their family members are, where they live, and how they can be recontacted."

"It is not hard for gun-using victims interviewed in the NCVS to withhold information about their use of a gun,

especially since they are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.

They are asked only general questions about whether they did anything to protect themselves.

In short, respondents are merely give the opportunity to volunteer the information that they have used a gun defensively. All it takes for a respondents to conceal a DGU is to simply refrain from mentioning it, i.e., to leave it out of what may be an otherwise accurate and complete account of the crime incident."

Given how gun studies arrive at so vastly different answers it seems not being a gun study is a good thing.

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[Brain357]

Why the NCVS is not a gun study....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

Why is the NCVS an unacceptable estimate of annual DGU's? Dr. Kleck states, "Equally important, those who take the NCVS-based estimates seriously have consistently ignored the most pronounced limitations of the NCVS for estimating DGU frequency. The NCVS is a non-anonymous national survey conducted by a branch of the federal government, the U.S. Bureau of the Census. Interviewers identify themselves to respondents as federal government employees, even displaying, in face-to-face contacts, an identification card with a badge. Respondents are told that the interviews are being conducted on behalf of the U.S. Department of Justice, the law enforcement branch of the federal government. As a preliminary to asking questions about crime victimization experiences, interviewers establish the address, telephone number, and full names of all occupants, age twelve and over, in each household they contact. In short, it is made very clear to respondents that they are, in effect, speaking to a law enforcement arm of the federal government, whose employees know exactly who the respondents and their family members are, where they live, and how they can be recontacted."

"It is not hard for gun-using victims interviewed in the NCVS to withhold information about their use of a gun,

especially since they are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection.

They are asked only general questions about whether they did anything to protect themselves.

In short, respondents are merely give the opportunity to volunteer the information that they have used a gun defensively. All it takes for a respondents to conceal a DGU is to simply refrain from mentioning it, i.e., to leave it out of what may be an otherwise accurate and complete account of the crime incident."

Given how gun studies arrive at so vastly different answers it seems not being a gun study is a good thing.

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Missourian]

Missouran...how did you post that....I have no clue on how to do that.....thanks.

Usually I'll screen capture what I want, open it up in MS Paint and crop what I want to use. I save that to my computer.

Then, at the bottom of the reply window there is a radio button next to "post reply" called "upload a file". Click that, select the image and click open. Look below the "upload a file" radio button and you will see the image loading, then it will prompt "thumbnail" or "full image".

Put the cursor in the reply window where you want the image in your reply, then click the "full image" button.

If you want to hotlink, use a photobucket link etc. follow these directions.

How to post an image... US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Thanks....I'll try it.....

I updated that post for the new software.

Step by step with pics.

How to post an image... US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[M14 Shooter]

You know that Brain will only lie to you, right?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I love posting this....it highlights how foolish the gun grabbers are....

too many average Americans who don't follow the issue think gun accidents are at an all time high...when in fact they are going down, not up........

CDC Report 35 369 Vehicle Accident Deaths 505 Gun Accident Deaths - Breitbart

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) final report on death statistics for 2013 shows there were 35,369 deaths from motor vehicle accidents versus 505 deaths from the accidental discharge of firearms.

That is not a typo—35,369 versus 505. Americans are 70 times more likely to die in a vehicle accident than by the accidental discharge of a firearm.

Yet Michael Bloomberg, Moms Demand Action, and Everytown for Gun Safety have not uttered a peep about Ford, Dodge, or Toyota control. They are utterly consumed with a new gun control push framed around accidental firearm deaths.

Again—35,369 deaths from motor vehicle accidents versus 505 accidental deaths from firearms. Just reading that ratio creates a sinking feeling in your stomach that perhaps the pursuit of gun control is totally unfounded.

So...once you look at murders by hands and feet....more than by long guns in general and way more than AR-15s in particular...you see that the anti-gun nuts are not interested in people who are killed...they are interested in their fear of guns.....and that is what motivates them, not the death of innocents...their time could be better spent preventing car accidents, but because they have a phobia about guns...they want to deny all Americans their birth right......the right to self defense.....

Do you think they will try to ban cars? I wouldn't put it past them.

 

[2aguy]

I love posting this....it highlights how foolish the gun grabbers are....

too many average Americans who don't follow the issue think gun accidents are at an all time high...when in fact they are going down, not up........

CDC Report 35 369 Vehicle Accident Deaths 505 Gun Accident Deaths - Breitbart

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) final report on death statistics for 2013 shows there were 35,369 deaths from motor vehicle accidents versus 505 deaths from the accidental discharge of firearms.

That is not a typo—35,369 versus 505. Americans are 70 times more likely to die in a vehicle accident than by the accidental discharge of a firearm.

Yet Michael Bloomberg, Moms Demand Action, and Everytown for Gun Safety have not uttered a peep about Ford, Dodge, or Toyota control. They are utterly consumed with a new gun control push framed around accidental firearm deaths.

Again—35,369 deaths from motor vehicle accidents versus 505 accidental deaths from firearms. Just reading that ratio creates a sinking feeling in your stomach that perhaps the pursuit of gun control is totally unfounded.

So...once you look at murders by hands and feet....more than by long guns in general and way more than AR-15s in particular...you see that the anti-gun nuts are not interested in people who are killed...they are interested in their fear of guns.....and that is what motivates them, not the death of innocents...their time could be better spent preventing car accidents, but because they have a phobia about guns...they want to deny all Americans their birth right......the right to self defense.....

Do you think they will try to ban cars? I wouldn't put it past them.

For some reason the left is obsessed with trains and buses....they love inefficient high speed rail, and here in Chicago they would love to ban cars from the downtown area......they see cars as too much freedom for people...they allow people to leave the large urban centers where they are more easily managed by central planners........