Capital Punishment - Right or Wrong?

[Liability]

Thomas Jefferson said: "It is more dangerous that even a guilty person should be punished without the forms of law than that he should escape."

If you are going to continue supporting the death penalty, then you MUST morally justify a case where ONE single innocent human being is put to death in error...

You'll have to find SOME grounds to justify it...OTHERWISE it is premeditated MURDER.

What statists like Liability are oblivious to is that our justice system, from arrest to sentence is fraught with human foible, error and prejudice (not just skin color. i.e. economic) ANYONE can pontificate on punishment of a guilty person, BUT you need to be VERY skeptical on how that guilt is arrived at.

Judges and District Attorneys are ELECTED officials...they often run on their "tough on crime" record...which MEANS public perception trumps the truth.

There are numerous cases where a conscientious detective uncovers evidence after someone has been convicted of a crime proving they have the wrong person, only to find themselves being harassed and threatened and told to let it go... DA's and Judges NEVER want to admit they convicted the wrong person...they put themselves, their reputation and their career ahead of justice and truth.

**********

"Twenty years have passed since this Court declared that the death penalty must be imposed fairly, and with reasonable consistency, or not at all, and, despite the effort of the states and courts to devise legal formulas and procedural rules to meet this daunting challenge, the death penalty remains fraught with arbitrariness, discrimination, caprice, and mistake." U.S. Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, February 22, 1994


Factors contributing to the arbitrariness of the death penalty:

* Ninety-five percent of death row inmates cannot afford their own attorney. Court-appointed attorneys often lack the experience necessary for capital trials and are overworked and underpaid. In the most extreme cases, some have slept through parts of trials or have arrived under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.

* Prosecutors seek the death penalty far more frequently when the victim of a homicide is white than when the victim is African-American or of another ethnic/racial origin.

* Co-defendants charged with committing the same crime often receive different punishments, where one defendant may receive a death sentence while another receives prison time.

* Approximately two percent of those convicted of crimes that make them eligible for the death penalty actually receive a death sentence.

* Each prosecutor decides whether or not to seek the death penalty. Local politics, the location of the crime, plea bargaining, and pure chance affect the process and make it a lottery of who lives and who dies.

* GEOGRAPHIC ARBITRARINESS: Since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, 80% of all executions have taken place in the South. The Northeast accounts for less than 2% of executions.

Death Penalty and Arbitrariness

This leads me to a question.....the judges and jury that convicts someone who is later found to be innocent, but has been put to death - they should be suffering the consequences for the innocent person's death. It IS premeditated murder afterall. They should be standing trial then as well imo.

Jamie

That's ridiculous and you sound quite silly for having offered such an inane comment. "Murder," as most words do, has an actual meaning attached to it.

A guilty verdict which turns out to have been in factual error and a death penalty sentence predicated on that verdict, issued pursuant to law, is not even remotely akin to the meaning of "murder" (premeditated or otherwise).

 

[Bfgrn]

Thomas Jefferson said: "It is more dangerous that even a guilty person should be punished without the forms of law than that he should escape."

If you are going to continue supporting the death penalty, then you MUST morally justify a case where ONE single innocent human being is put to death in error...

You'll have to find SOME grounds to justify it...OTHERWISE it is premeditated MURDER.

What statists like Liability are oblivious to is that our justice system, from arrest to sentence is fraught with human foible, error and prejudice (not just skin color. i.e. economic) ANYONE can pontificate on punishment of a guilty person, BUT you need to be VERY skeptical on how that guilt is arrived at.

Judges and District Attorneys are ELECTED officials...they often run on their "tough on crime" record...which MEANS public perception trumps the truth.

There are numerous cases where a conscientious detective uncovers evidence after someone has been convicted of a crime proving they have the wrong person, only to find themselves being harassed and threatened and told to let it go... DA's and Judges NEVER want to admit they convicted the wrong person...they put themselves, their reputation and their career ahead of justice and truth.

**********

"Twenty years have passed since this Court declared that the death penalty must be imposed fairly, and with reasonable consistency, or not at all, and, despite the effort of the states and courts to devise legal formulas and procedural rules to meet this daunting challenge, the death penalty remains fraught with arbitrariness, discrimination, caprice, and mistake." U.S. Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, February 22, 1994


Factors contributing to the arbitrariness of the death penalty:

* Ninety-five percent of death row inmates cannot afford their own attorney. Court-appointed attorneys often lack the experience necessary for capital trials and are overworked and underpaid. In the most extreme cases, some have slept through parts of trials or have arrived under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.

* Prosecutors seek the death penalty far more frequently when the victim of a homicide is white than when the victim is African-American or of another ethnic/racial origin.

* Co-defendants charged with committing the same crime often receive different punishments, where one defendant may receive a death sentence while another receives prison time.

* Approximately two percent of those convicted of crimes that make them eligible for the death penalty actually receive a death sentence.

* Each prosecutor decides whether or not to seek the death penalty. Local politics, the location of the crime, plea bargaining, and pure chance affect the process and make it a lottery of who lives and who dies.

* GEOGRAPHIC ARBITRARINESS: Since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, 80% of all executions have taken place in the South. The Northeast accounts for less than 2% of executions.

Death Penalty and Arbitrariness

This leads me to a question.....the judges and jury that convicts someone who is later found to be innocent, but has been put to death - they should be suffering the consequences for the innocent person's death. It IS premeditated murder afterall. They should be standing trial then as well imo.

Jamie

That's ridiculous and you sound quite silly for having offered such an inane comment. "Murder," as most words do, has an actual meaning attached to it.

A guilty verdict which turns out to have been in factual error and a death penalty sentence predicated on that verdict, issued pursuant to law, is not even remotely akin to the meaning of "murder" (premeditated or otherwise).

When an innocent human being is put to death in a planned and methodical way, WHAT word do you have for it?

 

[Liability]

This leads me to a question.....the judges and jury that convicts someone who is later found to be innocent, but has been put to death - they should be suffering the consequences for the innocent person's death. It IS premeditated murder afterall. They should be standing trial then as well imo.

Jamie

That's ridiculous and you sound quite silly for having offered such an inane comment. "Murder," as most words do, has an actual meaning attached to it.

A guilty verdict which turns out to have been in factual error and a death penalty sentence predicated on that verdict, issued pursuant to law, is not even remotely akin to the meaning of "murder" (premeditated or otherwise).

When an innocent human being is put to death in a planned and methodical way, WHAT word do you have for it?

I believe it's known as "execution." It is ALSO a very tragic thing. But whatever it is and whatever else it might properly be called, one thing it doesn't qualify as is "murder," at least not in a world where words are permitted to retain their actual meaning.

 

[Bfgrn]

That's ridiculous and you sound quite silly for having offered such an inane comment. "Murder," as most words do, has an actual meaning attached to it.

A guilty verdict which turns out to have been in factual error and a death penalty sentence predicated on that verdict, issued pursuant to law, is not even remotely akin to the meaning of "murder" (premeditated or otherwise).

When an innocent human being is put to death in a planned and methodical way, WHAT word do you have for it?

I believe it's known as "execution." It is ALSO a very tragic thing. But whatever it is and whatever else it might properly be called, one thing it doesn't qualify as is "murder," at least not in a world where words are permitted to retain their actual meaning.

AGAIN, your statism has taken over your reasoning ability...it IS murder...and it qualifies as the WORST form ... but I guess when your beloved STATE does it, it can be excused.

Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension. State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder. Premeditated murder is usually defined as one of the most serious forms of homicide, and is punished more severely than manslaughter or other types of murder - usually with the death penalty or a life sentence without the possibility of parole.
wiki

 

[RadiomanATL]

When an innocent human being is put to death in a planned and methodical way, WHAT word do you have for it?

I believe it's known as "execution." It is ALSO a very tragic thing. But whatever it is and whatever else it might properly be called, one thing it doesn't qualify as is "murder," at least not in a world where words are permitted to retain their actual meaning.

AGAIN, your statism has taken over your reasoning ability...it IS murder...and it qualifies as the WORST form ... but I guess when your beloved STATE does it, it can be excused.

Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension. State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder. Premeditated murder is usually defined as one of the most serious forms of homicide, and is punished more severely than manslaughter or other types of murder - usually with the death penalty or a life sentence without the possibility of parole.
wiki

No, legally its not murder. Morally, yeah I'll roll with that one. But legally, no way no how.

I'll show you. In the eyes of the law "wrongfully" is pretty much synonymous with "illegal".

From your definition: Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being...

Substitute the word "illegally" for "wrongfully" and you can see what I'm getting at. The person was put to death legally. Therefore it does not fall under the legal definition of murder. Wrongful death? Yeah, it might legally fall under that one. But not murder. Even depending on the state laws, the agents of the state are given immunity to a certain extent and civil action cannot be effectively brought against the state in many cases. Leaving the family without the actual person, and no way to receive pecuniary compensation for the wrongful execution.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Of course it's not "legally" murder. The state maintains a monopoly on the use of violence so who could ever truly bring them to justice? I prefer the term "state-sanctioned murder."

 

[Big Black Dog]

When an innocent human being is put to death in a planned and methodical way, WHAT word do you have for it?

If it's done by a criminal, I would call it murder. If it's done by a State, after being found guilty by a jury, I would call it justice.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

When an innocent human being is put to death in a planned and methodical way, WHAT word do you have for it?

If it's done by a criminal, I would call it murder. If it's done by a State, after being found guilty by a jury, I would call it justice.

They were talking about an innocent person, I believe.

 

[The Illusion]

Alright, it SHOULD be considered MURDER because it is premeditated by a judge and jury. In South Dakota a few years back they tried to pass a law that stated that a judge would be held responsible for the murder of any convicted innocent person that was put to death by the state. It didnt pass because they know..THEY KNOW...that they have killed innocent people thanks to the media and other factors that South Dakota doesnt obey like jurors being separated from media and other people while in the jury. South Dakota doesnt obey that at all.

Jamie

 

[Liability]

When an innocent human being is put to death in a planned and methodical way, WHAT word do you have for it?

I believe it's known as "execution." It is ALSO a very tragic thing. But whatever it is and whatever else it might properly be called, one thing it doesn't qualify as is "murder," at least not in a world where words are permitted to retain their actual meaning.

AGAIN, your statism has taken over your reasoning ability...it IS murder...and it qualifies as the WORST form ... but I guess when your beloved STATE does it, it can be excused.

Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension. State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder. Premeditated murder is usually defined as one of the most serious forms of homicide, and is punished more severely than manslaughter or other types of murder - usually with the death penalty or a life sentence without the possibility of parole.
wiki

I have no statism. That oft-repeated dishonest claim you make is just your ceaseless lying and stupidity coming to the forefront, again.

And of course, you otherwise also remain flatly wrong.

Murder, properly understood, is the wrongful taking of human life without legal cause, excuse or justification.

For example:

The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

Murder legal definition of Murder. Murder synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

An execution of a convicted defendant, even if based on a jury's factual error, may be deemed wrongful in many ways, but it is not in the slightest bit without legal cause or excuse.

Sorry, dimwit, but here in the real world, words STILL have actual meaning regardless of the fact that you wish to use them in other ways.