Capital punishment at crossroads in US

[Gunny]

By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Stop executions for a while and perhaps they can be stopped forever. That calculation has been part of the strategy of capital punishment opponents for decades.

The Supreme Court-inspired slowdown in executions offers the first nationwide opportunity in 20-plus years to test whether the absence of regularly scheduled executions will lead some states to abandon the death penalty and change public attitudes about capital punishment.

Recent decisions by judges and elected officials have made clear that most executions will not proceed until the Supreme Court rules in a challenge by two death row inmates to the lethal injection procedures used by Kentucky. The inmates say Kentucky's method creates the risk of pain severe enough to be cruel and unusual punishment, banned by the Eighth Amendment.

more ... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071021/ap_on_re_us/executions_delayed

Just a thought, but not committing a capital crime might go a long way in abolishing capital punishment.

*will give appropriate pennance for using logic later*

 

[Gunny]

By Matt Wells
BBC News, Alabama

Thomas Arthur came within hours of being executed last month
If most politicians in Alabama had their way, Tommy Arthur would have been executed more than 20 years ago.

The 65-year-old, whose death sentence was overturned twice before a third jury convicted him in the early 1990s, is alive on the state's death row - but only just.

Although no physical evidence placed him at the scene, he was convicted of shooting Troy Wicker in his bed after being paid $10,000 by the victim's wife, with whom he had had an affair.

The twists and turns of the case, and the tangled relationships involved, are worthy of a grim detective novel. But ultimately the jury, and state law, dictated Arthur should die.

He missed his last appointment with a lethal-injection syringe by only a few hours at the end of last month.

Alabama's governor has made it clear he wants Arthur to die as soon as possible, and that the current furore over the chemicals used to deliver the ultimate punishment is an annoying distraction.

more ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7045909.stm

So take the guy out and hang him. No lethal injection involved. Problem solved.

Wonder if this idiot considered it cruel and unusual to shoot his woman's husband in his own bed?

 

[jillian]

So take the guy out and hang him. No lethal injection involved. Problem solved.

Wonder if this idiot considered it cruel and unusual to shoot his woman's husband in his own bed?

You notice there was no physical evidence linking him to the crime scene. Personally, I don't think the state should have gotten a third time to get him convicted.

 

[Gunny]

You notice there was no physical evidence linking him to the crime scene. Personally, I don't think the state should have gotten a third time to get him convicted.

Kind a different subtopic ... the application of capital punishment in the US as opposed to whether or not lethal injection is "cruel and unusual punishment."

IMO, no one should be sentenced to die without overwhelming evidence that leaves absolutely NO doubt as to guilt.

We already discussed the so-called "protection" against double-jeopardy.

 

[jillian]

Kind a different subtopic ... the application of capital punishment in the US as opposed to whether or not lethal injection is "cruel and unusual punishment."

IMO, no one should be sentenced to die without overwhelming evidence that leaves absolutely NO doubt as to guilt.

We already discussed the so-called "protection" against double-jeopardy.

I agree that no one should die without overwhelming evidence that leaves no doubt as to guilt. I also think we need to address unequal application.

The double jeopardy issue vis a vis state and federal government is different since both entities are considered sovereign in their own right and neither can tell the other what to do in that regard. However, I think there's something inherantly wrong with the state having three trials against the same person on the same charges.

 

[mattskramer]

If we are to have capital punishment as part of our justice system, I do not see lethal injection as being “cruel and unusual”. The issue over whether or not we should practice capital punishment is a different issue.

 

[Gunny]

I agree that no one should die without overwhelming evidence that leaves no doubt as to guilt. I also think we need to address unequal application.

The double jeopardy issue vis a vis state and federal government is different since both entities are considered sovereign in their own right and neither can tell the other what to do in that regard. However, I think there's something inherantly wrong with the state having three trials against the same person on the same charges.

I'm curious as to the justification for getting three shots at him. The article doesn't go into detail.

 

[jillian]

I'm curious as to the justification for getting three shots at him. The article doesn't go into detail.

I'm curious about that, too.

But this is a little something I found on the case. I'm wondering why the Innocence Project hasn't latched on to this.

 

[Diuretic]

I heard about this case on the BBC World Service, it was an interesting programme. Apparently Arthur is maintaining his innocence (I know, prisons are full of innocent people, I've put a few innocent people in there myself <--- please note, sarcasm for effect) and is claiming that DNA evidence will clear him. Strangely enough the state of Alabama is seemingly reluctant to allow the use of DNA evidence. Could it be that the state of Alabama is keen to bury a mistake? Sorry, but the radio story (which may be available as a download from the BBC) had a lot of detail about alleged prosecutorial incompetence and foot-dragging by the justice system to make me highly suspicious of them.

On 'cruel and unusual punishment'. I know the legal approach (no unnecessary cruelty I would think) but it strikes me as a bit wry when the state discusses which method of execution isn't 'cruel and unusual'.

On doubt. There is never certainty in a criminal trial.

 

[CorpMediaSux]

Our country is so jacked up that the debate isn't even what it should be. Those who want capital punishment should have to defend why it's OK for the state to kill one of its own citizens, regardless of what they have done. What's the logic behind it? Does society benefit in some way? Capital cases are extremely expensive, often moreso than housing and feeding an individual. I mean this is getting at fundamental questions of what our criminal justice system is about. Is it just about punishment for revenge sake. Or does it have some other purpose?

 

[Gunny]

Our country is so jacked up that the debate isn't even what it should be. Those who want capital punishment should have to defend why it's OK for the state to kill one of its own citizens, regardless of what they have done. What's the logic behind it? Does society benefit in some way? Capital cases are extremely expensive, often moreso than housing and feeding an individual. I mean this is getting at fundamental questions of what our criminal justice system is about. Is it just about punishment for revenge sake. Or does it have some other purpose?

The logic is simple. Punishment commensurate to the crime. If you take another life in a purely selfish and criminal manner, you forfeit yours.

 

[Toro]

There's nothing more "Big Government" than capital punishment.

 

[Gunny]

There's nothing more "Big Government" than capital punishment.

There's nothing more fair than a reckoning for one's crimes.

 

[Toro]

There's nothing more fair than a reckoning for one's crimes.

Or vindictive.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Or vindictive.

Yes lets lock up murderers that know they can never be put to death for any reason. I nominate YOU as the cell block guard.

 

[Shogun]

I agree with capital punishment. If one can kill then one can BE killed without becoming a tax burden to the state.

 

[mattskramer]

Yes lets lock up murderers that know they can never be put to death for any reason. I nominate YOU as the cell block guard.

I’m against capital punishment because of the many instances in which we learn that some people on death row did not commit the murders that sent them there. I’d rather have 1 million alleged killers spend a real lifetime in jail doing hard labor without benefits than execute 1 person who did not commit the crime that he was accused of committing. Yet, I would make jail time very punitive. There would be no elective surgery, no television, and no toys. The cells would be very small. There would be work to do for which the prisoners would not get paid – the benefit would go to the state. Anyway, that is my 2-cents on the topic.

 

[Toro]

I&#8217;m against capital punishment because of the many instances in which we learn that some people on death row did not commit the murders that sent them there. I&#8217;d rather have 1 million alleged killers spend a real lifetime in jail doing hard labor without benefits than execute 1 person who did not commit the crime that he was accused of committing. Yet, I would make jail time very punitive. There would be no elective surgery, no television, and no toys. The cells would be very small. There would be work to do for which the prisoners would not get paid &#8211; the benefit would go to the state. Anyway, that is my 2-cents on the topic.

Exactly.

Even if you think capital punishment is just, you'd be an utter fool to think that innocent people haven't been put to death in the system. Or that it won't happen again in the future.

Lock them up for life and throw away the key. But the execution of an innocent man is irreversible. It is horrendous that the state has the power to murder an innocent man.

How conservatives can rail against the intrusion of liberty and freedom when the government raises your taxes by $100 yet seem to be okay with a system that kills an innocent man is beyond me.

 

[Diuretic]

I’m against capital punishment because of the many instances in which we learn that some people on death row did not commit the murders that sent them there. I’d rather have 1 million alleged killers spend a real lifetime in jail doing hard labor without benefits than execute 1 person who did not commit the crime that he was accused of committing. Yet, I would make jail time very punitive. There would be no elective surgery, no television, and no toys. The cells would be very small. There would be work to do for which the prisoners would not get paid – the benefit would go to the state. Anyway, that is my 2-cents on the topic.

I agree with you up to the treatment of prisoners. If they're in for life they have nothing to lose so you have to make sure, if you're going to manage the facility reasonably safely, that they do have something to lose. Give them privileges, they can be taken away if needed. Sorry for the thread drift but I had to bring it up.

 

[Diuretic]

Exactly.

Even if you think capital punishment is just, you'd be an utter fool to think that innocent people haven't been put to death in the system. Or that it won't happen again in the future.

Lock them up for life and throw away the key. But the execution of an innocent man is irreversible. It is horrendous that the state has the power to murder an innocent man.

How conservatives can rail against the intrusion of liberty and freedom when the government raises your taxes by $100 yet seem to be okay with a system that kills an innocent man is beyond me.

I think we can see - not just in this thread - that conservatism doesn't automatically equate with authoritarianism. The authoritarian personality wants to execute, it's a natural tendency for that personality. The chance that someone might be innocent can be rationalised by the authoritarian personality because keeping tight control is far more important than the consideration that if we execute a hundred alleged murderers there's a chane one might be innocent (these numbers can be adjusted to meet objections, they're only indicative examples).