Cap and Trade Taxes Used To Reduce Bad Behavior

[Navy1960]

Do you know what really surprises me most about cap and trade, were I an environmentalist or someone that advocated issues that were environmentally sensitive then this bill accomplishes none of the goals that the environmentalist stand for, namely a reduction in greenhouse gases to reduce global warming. Anyone who believes that this bill is anything but power issue and enivro-business issue I invite you to look at the number of companies that are backing this bill. Among them are GM,Ford, Alocoa, G.E. .. starting to see a pattern here? Those companies heavily vested in enviro-business that stand to make billions and billions of dollars on this bill at taxpayer expense on science that is still up for debate. Even the EPA has admitted this bill will do nothing unless every country that produces greenhouse gases participates and even then your looking at a 100 year temp change of 0.4+- .

 

[oreo]

Yeah, it's definitely not just about reducing the 'bad behavior' of polluters, it's also a way for the government to increase revenue in a way that de-incentivizes bad behavior.

The Cap & Tax bill is nothing more than a PUNISHMENT tax--designed to hurt everyone that turns on a light switch.

It's just another tax & spend bill that will NOT lead us to greener energy--it's just gives the government more money to spend on whatever they like. EX: Democrat Alan Grayson of Florida was promised 50 million for his vote-- from these polution permits to build a new hurricane center.

 

[Full-Auto]

Yeah, it's definitely not just about reducing the 'bad behavior' of polluters, it's also a way for the government to increase revenue in a way that de-incentivizes bad behavior.

The Cap & Tax bill is nothing more than a PUNISHMENT tax--designed to hurt everyone that turns on a light switch.

It's just another tax & spend bill that will NOT lead us to greener energy--it's just gives the government more money to spend on whatever they like. EX: Democrat Alan Grayson of Florida was promised 50 million for his vote-- from these polution permits to build a new hurricane center.

you should read the reports on Obamas science czar!!

John Holdren, Obama's Science Czar, says: Forced abortions and mass sterilization needed to save the planet

 

[Care4all]

So, if the governments purpose of Cap And Trade is to reduce supposedly bad behavior (reduce global warming carbons and gasses), basically, that says the government intends to tax things which they want to stop.
It's not only that, they say that they want to tax other behaviors they want to reduce also, tobacco and alcohol being two other biggies when using that line.
Ever hear of income tax?
Are they trying to reduce the amount of income you generate?

yes, i think that is what it means MM.

They tax people like renters, who do not get a federal tax write off for their abode, but those that buy, get to write off their abode...this is to push people in a certain direction.

They tax smokers as a sin tax....things they want you to do less of...

They tax liquor as a sin tax....things they want you to do less of...

even states that really don't want you to be owning guns and hunting, they charge higher fees for hunting licenses, and other states like here make it near free for a number of people including kids over 11 to get a license and minimal amt to others....

Doing this to industry has been going on forever, in one manner or another as well....

Doing this for businesses has been going on forever, in one manner or another, as well...

This is why our tax code on paper, with exemption definitions and rules, is taller than 9 feet if stacked...but all of these exemptions or non exemptions affect the way people live their lives, and the government...even though indirectly in some cases, is ruling us, instead of us, them... imo.

 

[alan1]

So, if the governments purpose of Cap And Trade is to reduce supposedly bad behavior (reduce global warming carbons and gasses), basically, that says the government intends to tax things which they want to stop.
It's not only that, they say that they want to tax other behaviors they want to reduce also, tobacco and alcohol being two other biggies when using that line.
Ever hear of income tax?
Are they trying to reduce the amount of income you generate?

yes, i think that is what it means MM.

They tax people like renters, who do not get a federal tax write off for their abode, but those that buy, get to write off their abode...this is to push people in a certain direction.

They tax smokers as a sin tax....things they want you to do less of...

They tax liquor as a sin tax....things they want you to do less of...

even states that really don't want you to be owning guns and hunting, they charge higher fees for hunting licenses, and other states like here make it near free for a number of people including kids over 11 to get a license and minimal amt to others....

Doing this to industry has been going on forever, in one manner or another as well....

Doing this for businesses has been going on forever, in one manner or another, as well...

This is why our tax code on paper, with exemption definitions and rules, is taller than 9 feet if stacked...but all of these exemptions or non exemptions affect the way people live their lives, and the government...even though indirectly in some cases, is ruling us, instead of us, them... imo.

Thanks.
While I agree that some taxes are necessary for our government to function, I disagree with punitive taxes. Punishing somebody that makes more money by charging them a higher rate is punitive in my opinion.

 

[Neo]

 

[Care4all]

So, if the governments purpose of Cap And Trade is to reduce supposedly bad behavior (reduce global warming carbons and gasses), basically, that says the government intends to tax things which they want to stop.
It's not only that, they say that they want to tax other behaviors they want to reduce also, tobacco and alcohol being two other biggies when using that line.
Ever hear of income tax?
Are they trying to reduce the amount of income you generate?

yes, i think that is what it means MM.

They tax people like renters, who do not get a federal tax write off for their abode, but those that buy, get to write off their abode...this is to push people in a certain direction.

They tax smokers as a sin tax....things they want you to do less of...

They tax liquor as a sin tax....things they want you to do less of...

even states that really don't want you to be owning guns and hunting, they charge higher fees for hunting licenses, and other states like here make it near free for a number of people including kids over 11 to get a license and minimal amt to others....

Doing this to industry has been going on forever, in one manner or another as well....

Doing this for businesses has been going on forever, in one manner or another, as well...

This is why our tax code on paper, with exemption definitions and rules, is taller than 9 feet if stacked...but all of these exemptions or non exemptions affect the way people live their lives, and the government...even though indirectly in some cases, is ruling us, instead of us, them... imo.

Thanks.
While I agree that some taxes are necessary for our government to function, I disagree with punitive taxes. Punishing somebody that makes more money by charging them a higher rate is punitive in my opinion.

To get around this "unfairness" of not charging a higher rate for Smokers, Insurance companies charge the higher rate as if all in the group plan are smokers, then offers a DISCOUNT for non tobacco use customers....

This way, they can say they are NOT discriminating or charging more for smokers, but rewarding those with good behavior with a discount, like good driver's discount with auto insurance...

So, the punishing someone....can be gotten around....

 

[Terry]

I got an email today and it was checked out by snopes but it showed two houses:

House 1: A 20 room mansion (not including 8 bathrooms) heated by natural gas. Add on a pool (and a pool house) and a separate guest house, all heated by gas. In one month this residence consumes more energy than the average American household does in a year The average bill for electricity and natural gas runs over $2400 per month. In natural gas alone, this property consumes more than 20 times the national average for an American home.. This house is not situated in a Northern or Midwestern "snow belt" area. It's in the South.

House 2: Designed by an architecture professor at a leading national university. This house incorporates every "green" feature current home construction can provide. The house is 4,000 square feet (4 bedrooms) and is nestled on a high prairie in the American southwest. A central closet in the house holds geothermal heat-pumps drawing ground water through pipes sunk 300 feet into the ground.

The water (usually 67 degrees F) heats the house in the winter and cools it in the summer. The system uses no fossil fuels such as oil or natural gas and it consumes one-quarter electricity required for a conventional heating/cooling system.. Rainwater from the roof is collected and funneled into a 25,000 gallon underground cistern. Wastewater from showers, sinks and toilets goes into underground purifying tanks and then into the cistern. The collected water then irrigates the land surrounding the house. Surrounding flowers and shrubs native to the area enable the property to blend into the surrounding rural landscape.


House 1 is outside of Nashville , Tennessee ;
it is the abode of the "environmentalist" Al Gore.


House 2 is on a ranch near Crawford , Texas ;
it is the residence of ex President of the United States , George W. Bush.

 

[Terry]

My point is after reading that is will Al Gore suffer with the cap and trade? My bet is he will keep using that much energy and still make billions.

 

[Care4all]

your Al G ore thing is out dated terry....and morphed from $1400 a month to $2400 in the rumor mill...and gore updated to green energy in home 1, since the chain email began a couple of years ago....

-------------------------------------
FactCheck.org: Is it true that Al Gore's mansion uses significantly more energy than the typical home?

A:

The main claim in a chain e-mail was true when the original message began making the rounds in 2007. Since then, the Gores have made several changes to their home.
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This e-mail has been circulating since 2007, the year former Vice President Al Gore's documentary on global warming, "An Inconvenient Truth," won an Oscar. It was basically accurate then. Gore's Nashville mansion consumed a large amount of energy compared with the national average, and President George W. Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas, had several environmentally friendly features. However, both the Gore and Bush residences have since changed.

Bush v. Gore: 2006

The Internet myth-busting site Snopes.com wrote about this e-mail and a similar one two years ago, finding that the main messages were true. The Associated Press reviewed the Gores' energy bills and reported that the family consumed 191,000 kilowatt-hours in 2006. This was considerably more than the amount of electricity used by the typical house in Nashville, about 15,600 kilowatt-hours a year.

An older version of the e-mail claimed that "Gore's average monthly electric bill topped $1,359." That figure was just about right, according to the numbers crunched by the AP. However, this e-mail has mutated the claim to an "average bill for electricity and natural gas [that] runs over $2400 per month." And we could find no basis for the expanded claim.

The e-mail says the Gore home "consumes more than 20 times the national average" in natural gas. We suspect the e-mail's author meant to say the Gores consume that much in electricity, since such a statistic was reported by the Tennessee Center for Policy Research. But the AP disputed the electricity figures published by TCPR, a group that is skeptical of the severity of global warming and the role of humans in causing it. Still, the AP figures show the Gores used 12 times the energy of a typical Nashville home.

In addition, at about 10,000 square feet, Gore's home is a little less than four times the size of the average new American home built in 2006. In contrast, the Crawford ranch belonging to Bush was about 4,000 square feet. A 2001 article in the Chicago Tribune said that the Bush ranch used geothermal heat pumps, as well as other environmentally friendly features.

Kalee Kreider, a spokeswoman for Gore, didn't dispute the electricity figures published by the AP at the time. But she said that the Gores work from their home and purchase energy from renewable solar, wind and methane gas sources. She argued that by participating in the "green" utility program and investing in renewable energy projects worldwide, the Gores were living a "carbon-neutral lifestyle."

Bush v. Gore: 2009

The e-mail has become dated, however. The now-former president Bush has moved into a new home in Preston Hollow, Texas, that is about 8,000 square feet – double the size of his Crawford ranch.

Kreider also told us in an e-mail that the Gores have made several eco-friendly changes to their home, which is now LEED certified. According to the Natural Resources Defense Council, this means that Gores' home has earned credits in five categories: "sustainable sites, water efficiency, energy and atmosphere, materials and resources and indoor environmental quality." Kreider told us:

Kreider, June 16: The Gores' home is certified by the US Green Building Council as a Gold LEED certified home for retrofitted homes. As part of the LEED certification process, they upgraded their windows, lighting, appliances and insulation, among other items in and around the home [...] The residence is powered with a geothermal system as well as 33-solar panels. The Gores also participate in the "Green PowerSwitch" program offered by their utility [company].

Kreider also noted that, contrary to what was claimed in the original e-mail, the Gores' residence "does not have a guest house."

We didn't ask for the Gores' electric bills, so we can't say how much efficiency improvement the family has accomplished. But the e-mail was on target in 2007; it's out of date now.

– Andrew Karter

 

[Terry]

I stand corrected but if the heat wasn't on Al Gore you think he would have changed? After all just how long ago did he change, and how long into his SAVE THE PLANET mantra went on before he changed. The point is, Al Gore stands to make millions if not billons, and the only reason why he changed was because of all the "Heat" he took on.

 

[Care4all]

I stand corrected but if the heat wasn't on Al Gore you think he would have changed? After all just how long ago did he change, and how long into his SAVE THE PLANET mantra went on before he changed. The point is, Al Gore stands to make millions if not billons, and the only reason why he changed was because of all the "Heat" he took on.

yes. i don't think he started the green updates on house 1 until after he made his global warming pitch, later that year or the following year...

As far as him making money off of going green, there is no doubt...

But people investing in electric companies made it big when our government gave grants to add the electric grids of the past as well....

someone always stands to gain....

like when the oil companies got their wish to be our sole fuel source for automobiles with the gvt granting money to build stations and gas pumps everywhere for gas only, when at the time ethanol was very popular, they got snuffed out for 70 plus years...someone gained by owning oil....

I'm telling ya, those in the know of how congress will manipulate things, stand to make millions, ALWAYS....

 

[Terry]

I stand corrected but if the heat wasn't on Al Gore you think he would have changed? After all just how long ago did he change, and how long into his SAVE THE PLANET mantra went on before he changed. The point is, Al Gore stands to make millions if not billons, and the only reason why he changed was because of all the "Heat" he took on.

yes. i don't think he started the green updates on house 1 until after he made his global warming pitch, later that year or the following year...

As far as him making money off of going green, there is no doubt...

But people investing in electric companies made it big when our government gave grants to add the electric grids of the past as well....

someone always stands to gain....

like when the oil companies got their wish to be our sole fuel source for automobiles with the gvt granting money to build stations and gas pumps everywhere for gas only, when at the time ethanol was very popular, they got snuffed out for 70 plus years...someone gained by owning oil....

I'm telling ya, those in the know of how congress will manipulate things, stand to make millions, ALWAYS....

This is what pisses me off to no end! They say they serve the public, WRONG! If they really want to serve the public then let them work for ZIPPO...NADDA....that would be serving.

 

[Terry]

one other thing, there shouldn't be any LO11YIST in Washington...the only lobbyist should be the people of the state to which the Representative hails from.

 

[Navy1960]

After the Tennessee Center for Policy Research exposed Gore’s massive home energy use, the former Vice President scurried to make his home more energy-efficient. Despite adding solar panels, installing a geothermal system, replacing existing light bulbs with more efficient models, and overhauling the home’s windows and ductwork, Gore now consumes more electricity than before the “green” overhaul.

Since taking steps to make his home more environmentally-friendly last June, Gore devours an average of 17,768 kWh per month –1,638 kWh more energy per month than before the renovations – at a cost of $16,533. By comparison, the average American household consumes 11,040 kWh in an entire year, according to the Energy Information Administration.
Tennessee Center For Policy Research : Post Politics: Political News and Views in Tennessee

Now the counter claim to this is that Gores actual energy usage is a offset by his purchasing offsets and reducing his carbon footprint. However one of the things that many don't realize is that Gore has a vested interest in a Crabon trading firm in London.

Al Gore, self appointed expert on global warming has been purchasing carbon credits in an effort to offset his palatial lifestyle. What he didn't tell us, however, is that the company he is buying the credits from is actually owned by him
Generation Investment Management LLP

Thats Al Gore's Carbon Trading company in which he purchases those credits from himself. So any defense of this man who is clearly perpetuating an agenda for self enrichment and has been rewarded for science that has been clearly debunked that he himself has put forth . So anyone that would defend Al Gore as some pure defender of the environment should really do a little more homework and see that the end result of all his efforts have led to the destructive bill that the Senate is debating.

 

[Care4all]

After the Tennessee Center for Policy Research exposed Gore’s massive home energy use, the former Vice President scurried to make his home more energy-efficient. Despite adding solar panels, installing a geothermal system, replacing existing light bulbs with more efficient models, and overhauling the home’s windows and ductwork, Gore now consumes more electricity than before the “green” overhaul.

Since taking steps to make his home more environmentally-friendly last June, Gore devours an average of 17,768 kWh per month –1,638 kWh more energy per month than before the renovations – at a cost of $16,533. By comparison, the average American household consumes 11,040 kWh in an entire year, according to the Energy Information Administration.
Tennessee Center For Policy Research : Post Politics: Political News and Views in Tennessee

Now the counter claim to this is that Gores actual energy usage is a offset by his purchasing offsets and reducing his carbon footprint. However one of the things that many don't realize is that Gore has a vested interest in a Crabon trading firm in London.

Al Gore, self appointed expert on global warming has been purchasing carbon credits in an effort to offset his palatial lifestyle. What he didn't tell us, however, is that the company he is buying the credits from is actually owned by him
Generation Investment Management LLP

Thats Al Gore's Carbon Trading company in which he purchases those credits from himself. So any defense of this man who is clearly perpetuating an agenda for self enrichment and has been rewarded for science that has been clearly debunked that he himself has put forth . So anyone that would defend Al Gore as some pure defender of the environment should really do a little more homework and see that the end result of all his efforts have led to the destructive bill that the Senate is debating.

sigh

when he was having all of this GREEN stuff INSTALLED he used more energy, afterwards, SIMPLY NOT TRUE...
construction energy raised it, even more than before but after completion, no.
his house is LEED CERTIFIED...100% energy and green efficient...

 

[Terry]

Ok color me stupid but I really don't get all this carbon credits because to me it doesn't matter if carbon credits issued or not. It still means if they believe in what they preach...energy used is energy used...it's like one of those pyramid scams

 

[dilloduck]

Ok color me stupid but I really don't get all this carbon credits because to me it doesn't matter if carbon credits issued or not. It still means if they believe in what they preach...energy used is energy used...it's like one of those pyramid scams

It's an ADDITIONAL tax on those who use energy---using the global warming scam to try to validate it. Middle men like Gore will take their cut of the take. Energy will continue to be used. If you can't afford the tax you may have to change your lifestyle.

 

[Terry]

sounds like an AMWAY type scam to me.

 

[Terry]

Ok color me stupid but I really don't get all this carbon credits because to me it doesn't matter if carbon credits issued or not. It still means if they believe in what they preach...energy used is energy used...it's like one of those pyramid scams

It's an ADDITIONAL tax on those who use energy---using the global warming scam to try to validate it. Middle men like Gore will take their cut of the take. Energy will continue to be used. If you can't afford the tax you may have to change your lifestyle.

Thanks, I can live off of very little electric but I wonder how many libs can say the same if it were to happen lets say TODAY.