Cap and Trade Equals Fraud and Tax

[Kevin_Kennedy]

H.R. 2454: American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 will result in a totalitarian centralization of the American economy in the administrative agencies of the federal government, especially the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). This 1,300 page horror is a prime example of congressional modus operandi -- no one in Congress actually had the opportunity to read the bill which was, incidentally, being amended as it was debated on the floor. As H.R. 2454 shows, this axiom still holds true: the more benign the title of a congressional bill, the more draconian its contents. After all, who could be against clean energy or security? The real goal of H.R. 2454 has nothing to do with either of these; it is a power grab, pure and simple.

While we have all heard much about the tax implications of H.R. 2454 and that every American family could see a $3,000 a year increase in their energy costs, H.R. 2454 does much more than that. H.R. 2454 is a fascistic fait accompli, giving the government expansive powers to regulate, subsidize, and tax more sectors of the economy. The bill authorizes more federal government control over the electrical grid, state and local building codes, lighting and appliances, industry, the financial markets, and, perhaps most ominously of all, the health care system. In addition, it includes wealth redistribution measures and would allow increases in foreign aid.

Campaign For Liberty — Cap and Trade Equals Fraud and Tax   | by Glenn Jacobs

 

[Old Rocks]

OK. That is really not the best solution. Agreed. So just start closing down the Coal and Oil fired generators on a ten year schedule. Dirtiest first. Then the natural gas generators on a 20 year schedule. Throw a grid out to where the wind, solar, and other alternatives are, and charge companies for tranmission over that grid to pay for it. That would be my solution.

 

[sarahgop]

we should live in caves

 

[Xenophon]

If this keep up we will be.

 

[ReillyT]

H.R. 2454: American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 will result in a totalitarian centralization of the American economy in the administrative agencies of the federal government, especially the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). This 1,300 page horror is a prime example of congressional modus operandi -- no one in Congress actually had the opportunity to read the bill which was, incidentally, being amended as it was debated on the floor. As H.R. 2454 shows, this axiom still holds true: the more benign the title of a congressional bill, the more draconian its contents. After all, who could be against clean energy or security? The real goal of H.R. 2454 has nothing to do with either of these; it is a power grab, pure and simple.

While we have all heard much about the tax implications of H.R. 2454 and that every American family could see a $3,000 a year increase in their energy costs, H.R. 2454 does much more than that. H.R. 2454 is a fascistic fait accompli, giving the government expansive powers to regulate, subsidize, and tax more sectors of the economy. The bill authorizes more federal government control over the electrical grid, state and local building codes, lighting and appliances, industry, the financial markets, and, perhaps most ominously of all, the health care system. In addition, it includes wealth redistribution measures and would allow increases in foreign aid.

Campaign For Liberty — Cap and Trade Equals Fraud and Tax **| by Glenn Jacobs

That passage is full of vague and ominous warnings, but doesn't really give me any detailed reasons to be afraid. Federal government control over my kitchen appliances?

It doesn't help that it cites the $3000 p.a. figure that has been widely debunked.

Do I believe the Cap and Trade bill is part of a huge federal government conspiracy to establish a fascist police state? No... sorry... don't buy that.

You shouldn't worry anyway. If the bill so clearly oversteps the bounds for federal intervention by the Constitution, the USSC will carve it up.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

H.R. 2454: American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 will result in a totalitarian centralization of the American economy in the administrative agencies of the federal government, especially the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). This 1,300 page horror is a prime example of congressional modus operandi -- no one in Congress actually had the opportunity to read the bill which was, incidentally, being amended as it was debated on the floor. As H.R. 2454 shows, this axiom still holds true: the more benign the title of a congressional bill, the more draconian its contents. After all, who could be against clean energy or security? The real goal of H.R. 2454 has nothing to do with either of these; it is a power grab, pure and simple.

While we have all heard much about the tax implications of H.R. 2454 and that every American family could see a $3,000 a year increase in their energy costs, H.R. 2454 does much more than that. H.R. 2454 is a fascistic fait accompli, giving the government expansive powers to regulate, subsidize, and tax more sectors of the economy. The bill authorizes more federal government control over the electrical grid, state and local building codes, lighting and appliances, industry, the financial markets, and, perhaps most ominously of all, the health care system. In addition, it includes wealth redistribution measures and would allow increases in foreign aid.

Campaign For Liberty — Cap and Trade Equals Fraud and Tax **| by Glenn Jacobs

That passage is full of vague and ominous warnings, but doesn't really give me any detailed reasons to be afraid. Federal government control over my kitchen appliances?

It doesn't help that it cites the $3000 p.a. figure that has been widely debunked.

Do I believe the Cap and Trade bill is part of a huge federal government conspiracy to establish a fascist police state? No... sorry... don't buy that.

You shouldn't worry anyway. If the bill so clearly oversteps the bounds for federal intervention by the Constitution, the USSC will carve it up.

Whether you believe it's a conspiracy to establish a fascist police state is irrelevant, because the fact is that the government is growing its power to unprecedented levels and that is a major cause for concern.

The Supreme Court is not exactly a steadfast defender of the Constitution, so I would say that we certainly do have cause for worry.

 

[ReillyT]

Campaign For Liberty — Cap and Trade Equals Fraud and Tax **| by Glenn Jacobs

That passage is full of vague and ominous warnings, but doesn't really give me any detailed reasons to be afraid. Federal government control over my kitchen appliances?

It doesn't help that it cites the $3000 p.a. figure that has been widely debunked.

Do I believe the Cap and Trade bill is part of a huge federal government conspiracy to establish a fascist police state? No... sorry... don't buy that.

You shouldn't worry anyway. If the bill so clearly oversteps the bounds for federal intervention by the Constitution, the USSC will carve it up.

Whether you believe it's a conspiracy to establish a fascist police state is irrelevant, because the fact is that the government is growing its power to unprecedented levels and that is a major cause for concern.

The Supreme Court is not exactly a steadfast defender of the Constitution, so I would say that we certainly do have cause for worry.

Let us assume without argument that you are right that the reach of federal government power is expanding. Do you always believe expansion of federal power to be a bad thing?

 

[KittenKoder]

That passage is full of vague and ominous warnings, but doesn't really give me any detailed reasons to be afraid. Federal government control over my kitchen appliances?

It doesn't help that it cites the $3000 p.a. figure that has been widely debunked.

Do I believe the Cap and Trade bill is part of a huge federal government conspiracy to establish a fascist police state? No... sorry... don't buy that.

You shouldn't worry anyway. If the bill so clearly oversteps the bounds for federal intervention by the Constitution, the USSC will carve it up.

Whether you believe it's a conspiracy to establish a fascist police state is irrelevant, because the fact is that the government is growing its power to unprecedented levels and that is a major cause for concern.

The Supreme Court is not exactly a steadfast defender of the Constitution, so I would say that we certainly do have cause for worry.

Let us assume without argument that you are right that the reach of federal government power is expanding. Do you always believe expansion of federal power to be a bad thing?

First, yes it is always a bad thing, has it ever proven to be otherwise?

Second, it is an expansion of federal intrusion, Morano even agrees, and he's a proponent of environmental protection. He said himself, it will do nothing to help but only gives the government more control.

 

[ReillyT]

Whether you believe it's a conspiracy to establish a fascist police state is irrelevant, because the fact is that the government is growing its power to unprecedented levels and that is a major cause for concern.

The Supreme Court is not exactly a steadfast defender of the Constitution, so I would say that we certainly do have cause for worry.

Let us assume without argument that you are right that the reach of federal government power is expanding. Do you always believe expansion of federal power to be a bad thing?

First, yes it is always a bad thing, has it ever proven to be otherwise?

The 14th Amendment represented an expansion of federal government power. So did the 19th Amendment. So did the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Rationing and the draft during WWII seemed to be a good idea. There are plenty of other examples of things the government does today that it didn't do in 1800 that we don't mind too terribly.

Second, it is an expansion of federal intrusion, Morano even agrees, and he's a proponent of environmental protection. He said himself, it will do nothing to help but only gives the government more control.

I am acting on the assumption that this is an expansion of federal government power.

As much as I would love to take the word of Morano (who I don't know) that this legislation won't help, my own counsel tells me to do otherwise.

So you aren't a proponent of environmental protection? That is a rather stark but frank admission.

 

[midcan5]

Can you corporate tools stop your crying for a second to consider that destroying the planet will hurt all of us. You guys are classroom editions of a psychological profile conservatism - 'any change will have dire consequences.' Bah humbug. I could easily imagine you all in a cave since if our ancestors were all conservatives, I'm sure we'd still be there, you still are.


The Cap and Trade Success Story - Global Warming - Environmental Defense Fund
Cap and Trade 101
http://www.sightline.org/research/energy/res_pubs/cap-and-trade-101?gclid=CLGpvaTHiZsCFeFM5QodXEZupg

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[Kevin_Kennedy]

That passage is full of vague and ominous warnings, but doesn't really give me any detailed reasons to be afraid. Federal government control over my kitchen appliances?

It doesn't help that it cites the $3000 p.a. figure that has been widely debunked.

Do I believe the Cap and Trade bill is part of a huge federal government conspiracy to establish a fascist police state? No... sorry... don't buy that.

You shouldn't worry anyway. If the bill so clearly oversteps the bounds for federal intervention by the Constitution, the USSC will carve it up.

Whether you believe it's a conspiracy to establish a fascist police state is irrelevant, because the fact is that the government is growing its power to unprecedented levels and that is a major cause for concern.

The Supreme Court is not exactly a steadfast defender of the Constitution, so I would say that we certainly do have cause for worry.

Let us assume without argument that you are right that the reach of federal government power is expanding. Do you always believe expansion of federal power to be a bad thing?

Yes, I do.

 

[ReillyT]

Whether you believe it's a conspiracy to establish a fascist police state is irrelevant, because the fact is that the government is growing its power to unprecedented levels and that is a major cause for concern.

The Supreme Court is not exactly a steadfast defender of the Constitution, so I would say that we certainly do have cause for worry.

Let us assume without argument that you are right that the reach of federal government power is expanding. Do you always believe expansion of federal power to be a bad thing?

Yes, I do.

Then you would rather live in the regime that existed during the early 1800s, and we fundamentally disagree on the effects of federal government expansion thus far.

I for one have little problem with the abolition of slavery, desegregation, extension of civil rights to minorities and women, the provision of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. I appreciate that the SEC regulates and requires the public be provided information about securities (even if it doesn't do the best job). I also appreciate the Center for Disease Control, the FDA, the Federal Reserve, wage and hour regulations, the national interstate system, the FDIC, the Clean Air Act, the EPA, the PBGC, the FAA, labour laws, the national park system, Superfund, etc.

The federal government deals with issues that cannot be handled on local basis due to races to the bottom. It solves collective action problems. It is not a boogyman.

 

[ReillyT]

Whether you believe it's a conspiracy to establish a fascist police state is irrelevant, because the fact is that the government is growing its power to unprecedented levels and that is a major cause for concern.

The Supreme Court is not exactly a steadfast defender of the Constitution, so I would say that we certainly do have cause for worry.

Let us assume without argument that you are right that the reach of federal government power is expanding. Do you always believe expansion of federal power to be a bad thing?

Yes, I do.

There are plenty of places in the world where central governments take almost no role in the lives of their citizens. Somalia, northern Uganda, the DRC, nearly any rural area of central Africa, etc. Almost all problems in these areas are solved locally, or not solved at all.

As far as I know, due to the lax enforcement of such areas as immigration in these parts of the world, it would be quite easy for you to pick up and move to any of these areas to live in your government-free utopia without fear of deportation.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

That passage is full of vague and ominous warnings, but doesn't really give me any detailed reasons to be afraid. Federal government control over my kitchen appliances?

It doesn't help that it cites the $3000 p.a. figure that has been widely debunked.

Do I believe the Cap and Trade bill is part of a huge federal government conspiracy to establish a fascist police state? No... sorry... don't buy that.

You shouldn't worry anyway. If the bill so clearly oversteps the bounds for federal intervention by the Constitution, the USSC will carve it up.

Whether you believe it's a conspiracy to establish a fascist police state is irrelevant, because the fact is that the government is growing its power to unprecedented levels and that is a major cause for concern.

The Supreme Court is not exactly a steadfast defender of the Constitution, so I would say that we certainly do have cause for worry.

Let us assume without argument that you are right that the reach of federal government power is expanding. Do you always believe expansion of federal power to be a bad thing?

99.9 percent of the time YES. And specifically in this case most assuredly YES. The Federal Government has no authority to tell me what can and can not be in my house in regards legal appliances. Nor have they any business trying to destroy the Electrical generation in this Country. Nearly 60 PERCENT of our electricity comes from COAL fired plants.

Tell ya what? BUILD replacements BEFORE shutting down what we have. Last I checked no one wants wind or solar generation near them. In fact the Liberal Democrats in Congress are leading the fight to deny such plants even exist in THEIR neighborhoods.

When we can no longer afford electricity and we have rolling black outs because we have forced coal plants to shut is NOT the time to start building new power plants. They should have been built LONG before either event occurs. Or have you learned nothing from California?

Nuclear power is safe, secure and proven to work. Europe has used it for YEARS. Yet the Federal Government has created so many regulations and taxes and requirements that new plants are not worth the time to pursue. Coupled with the rabid ecology nuts Nuclear plants are a waste of time when we KNOW they work.

These are the same people to facilitated the death of Californians in unnecessary floods by not allowing the Government to remove plants that compromised earthen levees all over California.

 

[Maple]

years, he is even an Obama voter. I asked him about this cap and trade. He states it won't work and that if it is passed they will have to rescind it.

If solar and wind were the cure all, we would all be already doing it. The facts are in, it is not economical, they don't put out the energy necessary to keep America going, so you always have to have a backup system in place. Maybe someday they will but someday is not here yet.

As far as global warming, that's nothing more than an Al Gore, U.N plot. Fact-for the last 11 years the world is in a cooling pattern while co2 has increased globally. What say you to that, for you liberals who insist that global warming exists and that it's man made???

What's your answer to the above fact. Global temperates are on the decline over the last 11 years yet there has been an increase in CO2??? Just facts please, no rant about George Bush causing this.

 

[ReillyT]

Whether you believe it's a conspiracy to establish a fascist police state is irrelevant, because the fact is that the government is growing its power to unprecedented levels and that is a major cause for concern.

The Supreme Court is not exactly a steadfast defender of the Constitution, so I would say that we certainly do have cause for worry.

Let us assume without argument that you are right that the reach of federal government power is expanding. Do you always believe expansion of federal power to be a bad thing?

99.9 percent of the time YES. And specifically in this case most assuredly YES. The Federal Government has no authority to tell me what can and can not be in my house in regards legal appliances. Nor have they any business trying to destroy the Electrical generation in this Country. Nearly 60 PERCENT of our electricity comes from COAL fired plants.

Tell ya what? BUILD replacements BEFORE shutting down what we have. Last I checked no one wants wind or solar generation near them. In fact the Liberal Democrats in Congress are leading the fight to deny such plants even exist in THEIR neighborhoods.

When we can no longer afford electricity and we have rolling black outs because we have forced coal plants to shut is NOT the time to start building new power plants. They should have been built LONG before either event occurs. Or have you learned nothing from California?

Nuclear power is safe, secure and proven to work. Europe has used it for YEARS. Yet the Federal Government has created so many regulations and taxes and requirements that new plants are not worth the time to pursue. Coupled with the rabid ecology nuts Nuclear plants are a waste of time when we KNOW they work.

These are the same people to facilitated the death of Californians in unnecessary floods by not allowing the Government to remove plants that compromised earthen levees all over California.

Whether the government has authority to tell you to do something is a legal issue. I am sure if this bill becomes law there will be plenty of litigation and then we will have an answer.

If building cleaner alternatives was currently business efficient, you wouldn't need a law to do it. It would already be done. However, what will make the most money for entrenched private enterprises is obviously the status quo. That is why incentives like cap and trade are required.

I don't know the specifics of this bill, but I don't believe that it will shut down electricity generation in the country. What it will do is make incorporate the public environmental costs of certain activities into the cost of production. That may end up being a tax on the consumer (not too terribly high by the last CBO estimate), but will incentivize a switch to cleaner options.

Maybe you are right about nuclear plants, but we are where we are, and those plants take 20 years to build and huge amounts of investment.

California is a result of poor planning, manipulation and a failure to keep up all elements of electricity delivery - generation, transmission and distribution. I don't see it as a model for the rest of the country, and I don't believe that anyone else does either. I don't see how it factors into the cap and trade debate. C&T has been tried elsewhere without causing blackouts.

 

[Full-Auto]

years, he is even an Obama voter. I asked him about this cap and trade. He states it won't work and that if it is passed they will have to rescind it.

If solar and wind were the cure all, we would all be already doing it. The facts are in, it is not economical, they don't put out the energy necessary to keep America going, so you always have to have a backup system in place. Maybe someday they will but someday is not here yet.

As far as global warming, that's nothing more than an Al Gore, U.N plot. Fact-for the last 11 years the world is in a cooling pattern while co2 has increased globally. What say you to that, for you liberals who insist that global warming exists and that it's man made???

What's your answer to the above fact. Global temperates are on the decline over the last 11 years yet there has been an increase in CO2??? Just facts please, no rant about George Bush causing this.

perhaps you should add that the UN has admitted this global warming hysteria is only a giant redistribution scheme.

Why do liberals ignore this FACT

 

[ReillyT]

years, he is even an Obama voter. I asked him about this cap and trade. He states it won't work and that if it is passed they will have to rescind it.

If solar and wind were the cure all, we would all be already doing it. The facts are in, it is not economical, they don't put out the energy necessary to keep America going, so you always have to have a backup system in place. Maybe someday they will but someday is not here yet.

As far as global warming, that's nothing more than an Al Gore, U.N plot. Fact-for the last 11 years the world is in a cooling pattern while co2 has increased globally. What say you to that, for you liberals who insist that global warming exists and that it's man made???

What's your answer to the above fact. Global temperates are on the decline over the last 11 years yet there has been an increase in CO2??? Just facts please, no rant about George Bush causing this.

perhaps you should add that the UN has admitted this global warming hysteria is only a giant redistribution scheme.

Why do liberals ignore this FACT

Can I have a cite please?

 

[washingtonshirt]

Whatever one person receives without working for someone else had to work for without receiving!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Let us assume without argument that you are right that the reach of federal government power is expanding. Do you always believe expansion of federal power to be a bad thing?

Yes, I do.

Then you would rather live in the regime that existed during the early 1800s, and we fundamentally disagree on the effects of federal government expansion thus far.

I for one have little problem with the abolition of slavery, desegregation, extension of civil rights to minorities and women, the provision of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. I appreciate that the SEC regulates and requires the public be provided information about securities (even if it doesn't do the best job). I also appreciate the Center for Disease Control, the FDA, the Federal Reserve, wage and hour regulations, the national interstate system, the FDIC, the Clean Air Act, the EPA, the PBGC, the FAA, labour laws, the national park system, Superfund, etc.

The federal government deals with issues that cannot be handled on local basis due to races to the bottom. It solves collective action problems. It is not a boogyman.

The end of slavery and desegregation could have happened without the government, especially considering it was the government that protected these institutions in the first place. There wouldn't have had to have been an extension of civil rights had the government recognized civil rights of all people in the first place. Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are all set to collapse in the near future, the Federal Reserve gives us the boom-and-bust cycle, wage and hour regulations lead to higher unemployment, and I'm not sure the SEC does a job in the first place.