Can't Ya' Give The President Credit...??

[PoliticalChic]

No my argument still is there was nothing obtained by torture that led to getting OBL, proven by the fact you can't give it and therefore you create a Straw Man. As I said torture only produced FALSE info. It's your position that FALSE info is still info and therefore justifies your sadistic desire for torturing people.

I love this!!!
LOVE IT!

It's like you're hanging on by your fingertips...and I'm stomping on 'em!

OK..here goes two more fingers!

1. The trail that led to the doorstep of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan began years earlier with aggressive interrogations of al-Qaida detainees at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and CIA “black site" prisons overseas, according to U.S. officials.

It was those sometimes controversial interrogations that first produced descriptions of members of bin Laden’s courier network, including one critical Middle Eastern courier who along with his brother was protecting bin Laden at his heavily fortified compound in Abbottabad on Sunday. Both the courier and his brother were among those killed, along with bin Laden, in the dramatic raid by U.S. special forces. War News Updates: I Guess Those Extreme Interrogation Techniques Do Work


2. An Al Qaeda suspect who was under harsh interrogation at a secret prison provided the nom de guerre of a courier. When two key prisoners lied about the courier, the CIA knew it was onto something.
Finding Osama bin Laden: Al Qaeda suspect provided initial clue, officials say - latimes.com


Eddie is a goner! Eddie is a goner! La la la!

You don't even know when you've been beaten. I really thought you would have left the room by now.

"You don't even know when you've been beaten."

You think I'd rely on the judgement of someone who voted for Barack Hussein Obama (peace be on him)?

If past is prologue, I'm going in the opposite direction you say!

 

[edthecynic]

It all depends on what you mean by "works." If you want FALSE confessions, for example, torture "works" great. However if you want true information it fails miserably.

so for thousands of years, torture only resulted in false info, but people continued to use it over and over regardless?

Does that really make sense to you?

This may come as a surprise to you, but there have been a lot of Sadists in the history of the world.

 

[Jarhead]

So Ed....

You believe that a man was put through "torture" and gave no information....

But when he was asked nicely he spilled his guts.

Sure...the fear of another "torture" session had nothing to do with it.

Your line of thinking and logic is pathetic.

No, that's the CON$ervative Straw Man.

When KSM was tortured he did give up information, but when the CIA checked the info they found it was false info. It was months after the torture stopped that the CIA got valid info, by conventional means.

Oh...I see....we are spinning things and making things up to win a debate...

Gotcha.

Cya.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Well, PC, President Obama got Bin Laden. President Bush let him go at Tora Bora. And later stated, "he is not a concern of mine". That is how history will remember this. All your whining and mewling will not change the facts one bit.

Honestly, I think this is kind a false line of attack on Bush. I think if you want to criticize OBL getting out of Tora Bora that's fair game, but the Bush quotes on OBL always struck me as a way to downplay the fact we flat could not find him for almost 10 years. I've always felt that Bush was trying to downplay how important OBL was in order to help folks understand that the larger war was what we should be all focusing on.

You're seeing now a good reason to downplay OBL's importance. For the last two days on NPR as I've driven to work you've heard open speculation about just how fast we can get the heck out of Afghanistan and Iraq and call it a day. Here in a week I expect to see pundits start talking about the end of the Patriot Act and a rolling back of some of the airplane restrictions. This importance attached to OBL is giving the average citizen the impression the war is over, when anyone with a brain and an education knows if anything, its just starting.

Killing OBL was a big blow for Al Queda. It's likely this is the end of any centralized structure they had. Especially after Bush took the wrecking ball to most of its command and control organization. But the splinter groups remain and are still very dangerous. Making OBL too important is just as dangerous as ignoring him.

 

[edthecynic]

So Ed....

You believe that a man was put through "torture" and gave no information....

But when he was asked nicely he spilled his guts.

Sure...the fear of another "torture" session had nothing to do with it.

Your line of thinking and logic is pathetic.

No, that's the CON$ervative Straw Man.

When KSM was tortured he did give up information, but when the CIA checked the info they found it was false info. It was months after the torture stopped that the CIA got valid info, by conventional means.

Oh...I see....we are spinning things and making things up to win a debate...

Gotcha.

Cya.

unlike you, I don't have to make anything up.

Hunting him down: CIA finally found his courier. - Philly.com

In a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe years ago, al-Qaeda's No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, gave authorities the nicknames of several of bin Laden's couriers, four former U.S. intelligence officials said. Those names were among thousands of leads the CIA was pursuing.
One man became a particular interest for the agency when another detainee, Abu Faraj al-Libi, told interrogators that when he was promoted to succeed Mohammed as al-Qaeda's operational leader, he received the word through a courier. Only bin Laden would have given Libi that promotion, CIA officials believed.
If they could find that courier, they'd find bin Laden.
The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been investigated and criticized for involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.
"We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.
It took years of work for intelligence agencies to learn he was a Kuwaiti-born man named Sheikh Abu Ahmed.

KSM Was Lying about OBL’s Location While Hiding the Courier Who Could Locate Him | Emptywheel

They waterboarded KSM 183 times in a month, and he either never got asked about couriers guarding OBL, or he avoided answering the question honestly. Had KSM revealed that detail, Bush might have gotten OBL 8 years ago.
And just as importantly, the whole time KSM was shielding Abu Ahmed’s true identity while being waterboarded, KSM was also lying to the CIA about where OBL was. When asked what things he lied about under torture at his 2007 CSRT hearing, KSM specifically said he first said he didn’t know of OBL’s whereabouts, and then confirmed false locations for him, in response to the torture.

President [of the Tribunal]: What I’m trying to get at is any statement that you made was it because of this treatment, to use your word, you claim torture. Do you make any statements because of that?
[snip]
KSM: I make up stories just location UBL. Where is he? I don’t know. Then he torture me. Then I said yes, he is in this area or this is al Qaida which I don’t him. I say no. They torture me.

​

So at the time when KSM was guarding crucial information about Abu Ahmed and with it OBL’s location, he was making shit up to get the torture to stop.

 

[Wicked Jester]

So Ed....

You believe that a man was put through "torture" and gave no information....

But when he was asked nicely he spilled his guts.

Sure...the fear of another "torture" session had nothing to do with it.

Your line of thinking and logic is pathetic.

No, that's the CON$ervative Straw Man.

When KSM was tortured he did give up information, but when the CIA checked the info they found it was false info. It was months after the torture stopped that the CIA got valid info, by conventional means.

He gave up the nick name.

Christ, you people just can't stand the fact that Obama and many other liberal loons were abjectly wrong on the effectiveness of non-torturous waterboarding.

Funny thing is, it sounds like Obama took some heat from a few of the 9/11 family members during their meeting today, regarding Holder's ongoing witchhunt of those interrogators who waterboarded KSM and two others.

The lib's just can't seem to stop getting it wrong.

 

[edthecynic]

So Ed....

You believe that a man was put through "torture" and gave no information....

But when he was asked nicely he spilled his guts.

Sure...the fear of another "torture" session had nothing to do with it.

Your line of thinking and logic is pathetic.

No, that's the CON$ervative Straw Man.

When KSM was tortured he did give up information, but when the CIA checked the info they found it was false info. It was months after the torture stopped that the CIA got valid info, by conventional means.

He gave up the nick name.

Christ, you people just can't stand the fact that Obama and many other liberal loons were abjectly wrong on the effectiveness of non-torturous waterboarding.

Funny thing is, it sounds like Obama took some heat from a few of the 9/11 family members during their meeting today, regarding Holder's ongoing witchhunt of those interrogators who waterboarded KSM and two others.

The lib's just can't seem to stop getting it wrong.

Months AFTER the torture/waterboarding stopped!!!!!

The fact that CON$ have to use info obtained by conventional means, like the courier's nickname, to rationalize using torture, is the best proof that torture produced not one single piece of usable info in getting OBL!!!!!!

Hunting him down: CIA finally found his courier. - Philly.com

In a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe years ago, al-Qaeda's No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, gave authorities the nicknames of several of bin Laden's couriers, four former U.S. intelligence officials said. Those names were among thousands of leads the CIA was pursuing.
One man became a particular interest for the agency when another detainee, Abu Faraj al-Libi, told interrogators that when he was promoted to succeed Mohammed as al-Qaeda's operational leader, he received the word through a courier. Only bin Laden would have given Libi that promotion, CIA officials believed.
If they could find that courier, they'd find bin Laden.
The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been investigated and criticized for involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.
"We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.
It took years of work for intelligence agencies to learn he was a Kuwaiti-born man named Sheikh Abu Ahmed.

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, PC, President Obama got Bin Laden. President Bush let him go at Tora Bora. And later stated, "he is not a concern of mine". That is how history will remember this. All your whining and mewling will not change the facts one bit.

Honestly, I think this is kind a false line of attack on Bush. I think if you want to criticize OBL getting out of Tora Bora that's fair game, but the Bush quotes on OBL always struck me as a way to downplay the fact we flat could not find him for almost 10 years. I've always felt that Bush was trying to downplay how important OBL was in order to help folks understand that the larger war was what we should be all focusing on.

You're seeing now a good reason to downplay OBL's importance. For the last two days on NPR as I've driven to work you've heard open speculation about just how fast we can get the heck out of Afghanistan and Iraq and call it a day. Here in a week I expect to see pundits start talking about the end of the Patriot Act and a rolling back of some of the airplane restrictions. This importance attached to OBL is giving the average citizen the impression the war is over, when anyone with a brain and an education knows if anything, its just starting.

Killing OBL was a big blow for Al Queda. It's likely this is the end of any centralized structure they had. Especially after Bush took the wrecking ball to most of its command and control organization. But the splinter groups remain and are still very dangerous. Making OBL too important is just as dangerous as ignoring him.

Well, you are partially correct in that I don't believe that President Bush meant exactly what he said. But what he said gave the complete impression that he just wasn't interested in Bin Laden any more.

And there was and is a very important psychological implication in the fact that it took us nearly ten years to get Bin Laden. One of the premises of the terrorists was that the US, like the USSR, was a very large entity, that was rotten at the core. And was unable to function in a focused manner. And in the area that we are in, both Iraq and Afghanistan, the strongest political structure is still the tribe. And a blood debt that like that of 9-11 is not a small matter. Bush's statement created the impression that he thought that it was a matter of only small importance.

No, Bin Laden's death will not end the danger from fanatics from this region. But it will make them more hesitant to incur this type of debt. And the affect here of finally realizing some justice for those that died on the tragic September day is a plus.

 

[JBeukema]

Torture May Have Slowed Hunt For Bin Laden, Not Hastened It

 

[Zona]

He definitely deserves some credit. Bush kept pressure on Osama for nearly 7 years, demolished his safe haven in Afghanistan, and killed off nearly every underling OBL had. At the time of OBL's death, Al Queda was running on its 11th and 12th stringers because everyone else up the ticket was dead or rotting in Gitmo.

Obama also deserves credit though. That was a gutsy call taking a unilateral action in a sovereign nation. Plus, 7 years of work is besides the point if you do nothing at all for 2 years. Obama following up on Bush's work ended up carrying the day.

This is a tough one for the true partisans. Right Wingers have tried to say that Obama bore full and total responsibility for everything that happened from the day he was elected forward. And now Obama has brought down OBL, so by that logic Obama gets the full credit. Left Wingers have blamed everything that's happened under Obama on Bush, which means by that logic OBL's take down is Bush's victory.

Rational folks will realize that this one is a win for both Bush and Obama. I'm sad that so few folks will see it that way though.

And lets not orget, he flew out Bin Ladens out of the country immediatly after 9/11. I am glad the kept them safe.

 

[Wicked Jester]

He definitely deserves some credit. Bush kept pressure on Osama for nearly 7 years, demolished his safe haven in Afghanistan, and killed off nearly every underling OBL had. At the time of OBL's death, Al Queda was running on its 11th and 12th stringers because everyone else up the ticket was dead or rotting in Gitmo.

Obama also deserves credit though. That was a gutsy call taking a unilateral action in a sovereign nation. Plus, 7 years of work is besides the point if you do nothing at all for 2 years. Obama following up on Bush's work ended up carrying the day.

This is a tough one for the true partisans. Right Wingers have tried to say that Obama bore full and total responsibility for everything that happened from the day he was elected forward. And now Obama has brought down OBL, so by that logic Obama gets the full credit. Left Wingers have blamed everything that's happened under Obama on Bush, which means by that logic OBL's take down is Bush's victory.

Rational folks will realize that this one is a win for both Bush and Obama. I'm sad that so few folks will see it that way though.

And lets not orget, he flew out Bin Ladens out of the country immediatly after 9/11. I am glad the kept them safe.

What the fuck is the above drivel?

Christ Zona, lay off the fuckin' booze.

 

[Too Tall]

And still no one has said what info was extracted from torture that was so valuable that OBL could not have been found without it!!!!!
KSM fed the CIA false info they wanted to hear under torture. The first usable piece of usable intel, that OBL used couriers, came months after the torture stopped.
So again tell us what actual useful info was a aquired by torture!!!!!

As I previously explained, enhanced interrogation techniques are used to gain the cooperation of the subject. The interrogator asks questions that he knows the answers to and when the subject quits lying and starts cooperating, normal interrogation methods are used to acquire useful info.

I suspect, but I don't know that if a towel and a water pitcher were placed in plain sight during normal interrogations, the subject would take the hint.

 

[Big Fitz]

Months AFTER the torture/waterboarding stopped!!!!!

I just have a simple question prefaced by an example.

A child is beaten by a father's belt really badly. Ever since that beating, all the father has to ask is "Do I have to get my belt?" and the child cowers in fear of the memory of that beating before obeying.

If no beating is ever applied again, is the child still being affected by the beating?

Now, apply that same question to waterboarding. The interrogator gets at his wits end and asks "Do we have to waterboard you again?"

Has he been waterboarded, or has the memory of the horrific event (thank you ingrained biological response) done it's job? Could it have been the same as asking "do we have to get the bamboo shoots under the fingernails again?" Or the rack, or the hot pokers, or, or, or...?

Are you getting the point here?

 

[edthecynic]

And still no one has said what info was extracted from torture that was so valuable that OBL could not have been found without it!!!!!
KSM fed the CIA false info they wanted to hear under torture. The first usable piece of usable intel, that OBL used couriers, came months after the torture stopped.
So again tell us what actual useful info was a aquired by torture!!!!!

As I previously explained, enhanced interrogation techniques are used to gain the cooperation of the subject. The interrogator asks questions that he knows the answers to and when the subject quits lying and starts cooperating, normal interrogation methods are used to acquire useful info.

I suspect, but I don't know that if a towel and a water pitcher were placed in plain sight during normal interrogations, the subject would take the hint.

Months AFTER the torture/waterboarding stopped!!!!!

I just have a simple question prefaced by an example.

A child is beaten by a father's belt really badly. Ever since that beating, all the father has to ask is "Do I have to get my belt?" and the child cowers in fear of the memory of that beating before obeying.

If no beating is ever applied again, is the child still being affected by the beating?

Now, apply that same question to waterboarding. The interrogator gets at his wits end and asks "Do we have to waterboard you again?"

Has he been waterboarded, or has the memory of the horrific event (thank you ingrained biological response) done it's job? Could it have been the same as asking "do we have to get the bamboo shoots under the fingernails again?" Or the rack, or the hot pokers, or, or, or...?

Are you getting the point here?

Except they waterboarded him 183 times in the month of March 2003 and they couldn't get the nickname of the courier. All they got was lies. Do you really think the threat of a 184th waterboarding would have any different effect???? Obviously after 183 failures, the CIA got the bright idea to try something different!

 

[Big Fitz]

And still no one has said what info was extracted from torture that was so valuable that OBL could not have been found without it!!!!!
KSM fed the CIA false info they wanted to hear under torture. The first usable piece of usable intel, that OBL used couriers, came months after the torture stopped.
So again tell us what actual useful info was a aquired by torture!!!!!

As I previously explained, enhanced interrogation techniques are used to gain the cooperation of the subject. The interrogator asks questions that he knows the answers to and when the subject quits lying and starts cooperating, normal interrogation methods are used to acquire useful info.

I suspect, but I don't know that if a towel and a water pitcher were placed in plain sight during normal interrogations, the subject would take the hint.

Months AFTER the torture/waterboarding stopped!!!!!

I just have a simple question prefaced by an example.

A child is beaten by a father's belt really badly. Ever since that beating, all the father has to ask is "Do I have to get my belt?" and the child cowers in fear of the memory of that beating before obeying.

If no beating is ever applied again, is the child still being affected by the beating?

Now, apply that same question to waterboarding. The interrogator gets at his wits end and asks "Do we have to waterboard you again?"

Has he been waterboarded, or has the memory of the horrific event (thank you ingrained biological response) done it's job? Could it have been the same as asking "do we have to get the bamboo shoots under the fingernails again?" Or the rack, or the hot pokers, or, or, or...?

Are you getting the point here?

Except they waterboarded him 183 times in the month of March 2003 and they couldn't get the nickname of the courier. All they got was lies. Do you really think the threat of a 184th waterboarding would have any different effect???? Obviously after 183 failures, the CIA got the bright idea to try something different!

So tell me, sensei. Do have proof you know KSM's breaking point? Do your divine powers reach so far?

 

[edthecynic]

As I previously explained, enhanced interrogation techniques are used to gain the cooperation of the subject. The interrogator asks questions that he knows the answers to and when the subject quits lying and starts cooperating, normal interrogation methods are used to acquire useful info.

I suspect, but I don't know that if a towel and a water pitcher were placed in plain sight during normal interrogations, the subject would take the hint.

I just have a simple question prefaced by an example.

A child is beaten by a father's belt really badly. Ever since that beating, all the father has to ask is "Do I have to get my belt?" and the child cowers in fear of the memory of that beating before obeying.

If no beating is ever applied again, is the child still being affected by the beating?

Now, apply that same question to waterboarding. The interrogator gets at his wits end and asks "Do we have to waterboard you again?"

Has he been waterboarded, or has the memory of the horrific event (thank you ingrained biological response) done it's job? Could it have been the same as asking "do we have to get the bamboo shoots under the fingernails again?" Or the rack, or the hot pokers, or, or, or...?

Are you getting the point here?

Except they waterboarded him 183 times in the month of March 2003 and they couldn't get the nickname of the courier. All they got was lies. Do you really think the threat of a 184th waterboarding would have any different effect???? Obviously after 183 failures, the CIA got the bright idea to try something different!

So tell me, sensei. Do have proof you know KSM's breaking point? Do your divine powers reach so far?

Obviously more than 183! If the CIA broke him with less then they were just being sadistic by 183.