Can't We Get Along?

[mattskramer]

all true but your point was we should not " equate the religion of Islam with the terrorism " if the terrorist are saying that is their motivation what choice do we have but to agree with their self proclaimed nexus?

Go after terrorists without going after non-terrorist Muslims.

 

[archangel]

Go after terrorists without going after non-terrorist Muslims.

When did you convert to Islam?

 

[mattskramer]

I'm a Jew, and like the Jews of old, God has called upon all Jews to go out and take more land. He had called upon us to kill all those who are not Jewish. I speak for all Jews. Go forth and take more land in the name of God.

Sheesh...Don't you see my point.

 

[archangel]

I'm a Jew, and like the Jews of old, God has called upon all Jews to go out and take more land. He had called upon us to kill all those who are not Jewish. I speak for all Jews. Go forth and take more land in the name of God.

Sheesh...Don't you see my point.

Now you claim to be Jewish...sorta along the lines of the progressive modern day peddlers of porn in Hollywood or the True believers such as Orthodox...You are ranting now like the liberal Jews in Israel who are destroying your home country...appeasement ring a bell!

 

[mattskramer]

Now you claim to be Jewish...sorta along the lines of the progressive modern day peddlers of porn in Hollywood or the True believers such as Orthodox...You are ranting now like the liberal Jews in Israel who are destroying your home country...appeasement ring a bell!

Personally, I'm an agnostic.

 

[archangel]

Personally, I'm an agnostic.

honesty...now I see where you are comming from...however this will not save you if Radical Islam comes looking for you...you will convert or lose your head...sleep on that young man...........

 

[5stringJeff]

Okay. Perhaps I should read more about the details concerning the Crusades. My main point was that I hope that we don't equate the religion of Islam with the terrorism committed my people or groups who claim to be Muslim (followers of Islam).

Wahabbi Islam, which is the sect of Islam that rules Saudi Arabia, does condone terrorism. While your Jim Jones analogy may be correct on a theological level, on a practical level there are a significant minority of Muslims who follow the Wahabbi sect, and therefore condone terrorism.

 

[Bonnie]

Personally, I'm an agnostic.

Matt I posted a while back the full passages of the Koran in which it tells that killing anyone who doesn't believe as they do should be killed and this was repeated in several passages so no chance of misinterpretation, I don't have time to look it up now but if you do a search you will find it.

 

[mattskramer]

Wahabbi Islam, which is the sect of Islam that rules Saudi Arabia, does condone terrorism. While your Jim Jones analogy may be correct on a theological level, on a practical level there are a significant minority of Muslims who follow the Wahabbi sect, and therefore condone terrorism.

Fair enough. I simply hope that the concern I hear that people have concerning militant Islamic terrorism doesn't evolve/regress into a paranoid witch hunt for American Muslims who may not only be innocent of any alleged terrorism-related activity but actually oppose the actions of Islamic terrorists.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Fair enough. I simply hope that the concern I hear that people have concerning militant Islamic terrorism doesn't evolve/regress into a paranoid witch hunt for American Muslims who may not only be innocent of any alleged terrorism-related activity but actually oppose the actions of Islamic terrorists.

Not necessarily a witch hunt, but why shouldn't pressure be put upon the mosques? They are breeding grounds for terrorism. If the islamofascists are committing their acts of terror in the name of Islam, then the peaceful Islamists need to proactively choose sides and not just mouth platitudes which is about all they have done so far. They have much more power to prevent islamofascism within the religion than outsiders do and they should be encouraged to stamp it out completely. Why is it they aren't mightily doing so already?

 

[mattskramer]

Matt I posted a while back the full passages of the Koran in which it tells that killing anyone who doesn't believe as they do should be killed and this was repeated in several passages so no chance of misinterpretation, I don't have time to look it up now but if you do a search you will find it.

Again, taken as a whole, the Koran does not support conversion by the sword:

Whosoever kills an innocent human being, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and whosoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. (5:32)

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the
Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day
and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is
no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become
clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan
and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which
shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. (2:56)

Invite all to the way of your God with wisdom and beautiful preaching. And argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious. For your God knows best who have strayed from his path and who receive guidance. And if you do respond to an attack, respond no worse than they did. But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course. Be patient- for your patience is from God . . . Indeed, God is with those who restrain themselves and those who do good. (16:125-128)

There are many more such passages.

 

[Bonnie]

Fair enough. I simply hope that the concern I hear that people have concerning militant Islamic terrorism doesn't evolve/regress into a paranoid witch hunt for American Muslims who may not only be innocent of any alleged terrorism-related activity but actually oppose the actions of Islamic terrorists.

I think you can give most of us the benefit of the doubt in being cultured enough and civil enough to not start bulldozing or burning mosques or targeting peaceful Muslim people. And it sure would be nice to hear more opposition to radical Islam in this country and abroad, because so far Im not impressed with the trickling of condemnation.

 

[mattskramer]

Not necessarily a witch hunt, but why shouldn't pressure be put upon the mosques? They are breeding grounds for terrorism. If the islamofascists are committing their acts of terror in the name of Islam, then the peaceful Islamists need to proactively choose sides and not just mouth platitudes which is about all they have done so far. They have much more power to prevent islamofascism within the religion than outsiders do and they should be encouraged to stamp it out completely. Why is it they aren't mightily doing so already?

How much is enough? I have talked with Muslims. I see and hear the opposition to Islamic terrorism. I'm sorry if there has not been enough to satisfy you. Islam does not have a "Pope". I'm reminded of how long it took the Southern Baptist Convention to finally officially apologize for its unresponsiveness to the issue of slavery, segregation, and racism that has been practiced by Baptists. Even though Muslims don't have an official spokesman (such as a Pope), they have, in general, distanced themselves from, written against, and spoken out against OBL and those similar to him.

By the way, did the peaceful "turn the other cheek" Christians call upon their Catholic and Protestant brothers to stop the war between the IRA and Great Britain?

 

[xandy123]

Good point, Jeff.
Religious conflict has been a part of world history as long as there as been world history. The Middle East has been the site of armed religious struggles and infighting for milleniums longer than the U.S. has been populated by outsiders. That is why we should leave them alone.

Umm...sorry but we did leave them alone, they are the ones that attacked us remember

 

[xandy123]

Fair enough. I simply hope that the concern I hear that people have concerning militant Islamic terrorism doesn't evolve/regress into a paranoid witch hunt for American Muslims who may not only be innocent of any alleged terrorism-related activity but actually oppose the actions of Islamic terrorists.

That has already happened

 

[freeandfun1]

Umm...sorry but we did leave them alone, they are the ones that attacked us remember

Good point but one that will be lost on that mulitple personality....

Technically, everywhere in the world has had some sort of strife or another since the beginning of time... so I am not sure what da point is of that poseur... I mean, poster.

 

[archangel]

Not necessarily a witch hunt, but why shouldn't pressure be put upon the mosques? They are breeding grounds for terrorism. If the islamofascists are committing their acts of terror in the name of Islam, then the peaceful Islamists need to proactively choose sides and not just mouth platitudes which is about all they have done so far. They have much more power to prevent islamofascism within the religion than outsiders do and they should be encouraged to stamp it out completely. Why is it they aren't mightily doing so already?

I cannot understand why people can't get over the PC attitude...Islam is not...I repeat not...a religion of peace and tolerance...their main goal is to convert the world to Islam by any means necessary...see History 101...Ottoman Empire revisted today...they will not take no for a answer...you either convert or you will be eliminated...wake up boys and girls...to patronize this so called religion is a big mistake...see 911... :firing:

 

[ScreamingEagle]

How much is enough? I have talked with Muslims. I see and hear the opposition to Islamic terrorism. I'm sorry if there has not been enough to satisfy you. Islam does not have a "Pope". I'm reminded of how long it took the Southern Baptist Convention to finally officially apologize for its unresponsiveness to the issue of slavery, segregation, and racism that has been practiced by Baptists. Even though Muslims don't have an official spokesman (such as a Pope), they have, in general, distanced themselves from, written against, and spoken out against OBL and those similar to him.

By the way, did the peaceful "turn the other cheek" Christians call upon their Catholic and Protestant brothers to stop the war between the IRA and Great Britain?

Enough to reduce the estimated 80% radicalization of the American mosques to zero. Are you aware of what a fifth column is? Why should such anti-American sentiments be allowed to fester anywhere in our country? It is time to break open the mosques and expose them for what they are. We should demand that all of their teachings and writings be exposed and made available to the public, including those not written in English, and condemn everything that is seditious in nature.

Rep. Peter T. King, R-N.Y., told radio talk host Sean Hannity in an interview Monday no American Muslim leaders are cooperating in the war on terror.

"I would say, you could say that 80-85 percent of mosques in this country are controlled by Islamic fundamentalists," he said. "Those who are in control. The average Muslim, no, they are loyal, but they don't work, they don't come forward, they don't tell the police … ."
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37099


The radicalization of U.S. Muslims
Inside U.S. mosques, American Muslims hear a message of fundamentalism
http://www.rickross.com/reference/islamic/islamic38.html


1/28/2005: Saudi Hate Ideology Fills US Mosques
Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom has completed a year-long study of documents collected from more than a dozen Saudi-funded mosques in the United States—and the study confirms what many of us had long suspected: Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques.

Among the key findings of the report:

* Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;

* The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;

* The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. ---

* One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. ---

* Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they “should be killed;”

* Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;

* Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles;

The report states: “While the government of Saudi Arabia claims to be ‘updating’ or reforming its textbooks and study materials within the Kingdom, its publications propagating an ideology of hatred remain plentiful in some prominent American mosques and Islamic centers, and continue to be a principal resource available to students of Islam within the United States.”

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14501

 

[mattskramer]

Are you aware of what a fifth column is?

No. Explain it to me.

Why should such anti-American sentiments be allowed to fester anywhere in our country?

Free Speech. Citizens have a right to criticize the USA - Even in a "time of war".

It is time to break open the mosques and expose them for what they are. We should demand that all of their teachings and writings be exposed and made available to the public, including those not written in English, and condemn everything that is seditious in nature.

From what I understand, those who are legitimately interested are allowed to visit and learn.

Rep. Peter T. King, R-N.Y., told radio talk host Sean Hannity in an interview Monday no American Muslim leaders are cooperating in the war on terror.

I disagree with Peter King.

"I would say, you could say that 80-85 percent of mosques in this country are controlled by Islamic fundamentalists," he said. "Those who are in control. The average Muslim, no, they are loyal, but they don't work, they don't come forward, they don't tell the police … ."
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37099


The radicalization of U.S. Muslims
Inside U.S. mosques, American Muslims hear a message of fundamentalism
http://www.rickross.com/reference/i.../islamic38.html


1/28/2005: Saudi Hate Ideology Fills US Mosques
Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom has completed a year-long study of documents collected from more than a dozen Saudi-funded mosques in the United States—and the study confirms what many of us had long suspected: Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques.

Among the key findings of the report:

* Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;

* The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;

* The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. ---

* One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. ---

* Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they “should be killed;”

* Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;

* Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles;

The report states: “While the government of Saudi Arabia claims to be ‘updating’ or reforming its textbooks and study materials within the Kingdom, its publications propagating an ideology of hatred remain plentiful in some prominent American mosques and Islamic centers, and continue to be a principal resource available to students of Islam within the United States.”

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14501

Very nice, but I don't have time to go over this post. Now, to be fair, simply check out the other side:

http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=160&theType=AA

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Are you aware of what a fifth column is?

No. Explain it to me.

Why should such anti-American sentiments be allowed to fester anywhere in our country?

Free Speech. Citizens have a right to criticize the USA - Even in a "time of war".

It is time to break open the mosques and expose them for what they are. We should demand that all of their teachings and writings be exposed and made available to the public, including those not written in English, and condemn everything that is seditious in nature.

From what I understand, those who are legitimately interested are allowed to visit and learn.

Rep. Peter T. King, R-N.Y., told radio talk host Sean Hannity in an interview Monday no American Muslim leaders are cooperating in the war on terror.

I disagree with Peter King.

"I would say, you could say that 80-85 percent of mosques in this country are controlled by Islamic fundamentalists," he said. "Those who are in control. The average Muslim, no, they are loyal, but they don't work, they don't come forward, they don't tell the police … ."
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37099


The radicalization of U.S. Muslims
Inside U.S. mosques, American Muslims hear a message of fundamentalism
http://www.rickross.com/reference/i.../islamic38.html


1/28/2005: Saudi Hate Ideology Fills US Mosques
Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom has completed a year-long study of documents collected from more than a dozen Saudi-funded mosques in the United States—and the study confirms what many of us had long suspected: Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques.

Among the key findings of the report:

* Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;

* The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;

* The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. ---

* One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. ---

* Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they “should be killed;”

* Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;

* Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles;

The report states: “While the government of Saudi Arabia claims to be ‘updating’ or reforming its textbooks and study materials within the Kingdom, its publications propagating an ideology of hatred remain plentiful in some prominent American mosques and Islamic centers, and continue to be a principal resource available to students of Islam within the United States.”

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14501

Very nice, but I don't have time to go over this post. Now, to be fair, simply check out the other side:

http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=160&theType=AA

To understand what a Fifth Column is think of "the enemy within our midst". That is essentially a Fifth Column - a group which aids and abets the enemy from within their own country. There is an Islamic Fifth Column in the United States which is aiding and abetting the islamofacist terrorists. This goes far beyond "free speech" - it is seditious and must be stopped. CAIR is in denial or else it is complicitous.

Read all about it:

http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/20040407-092859-5549r.htm
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=825
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5270