Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

GreatestIam

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Jan 12, 2012
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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

America Magazine - Evolution, Evil and Original Sin

Walking by sight, not by faith - YouTube

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA]Magazine - Can Babies Tell Right From Wrong? - nytimes.com/video - YouTube[/ame]

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
 
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

America Magazine - Evolution, Evil and Original Sin

Walking by sight, not by faith - YouTube

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

Magazine - Can Babies Tell Right From Wrong? - nytimes.com/video - YouTube

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

First we give God these all encompassing powers. Omnipotent, omniscient, a real "do anything" kind of guy. Then we say that he was thwarted by man. Thwarted by the very creation that was supposed to be so great.

Rather than fix the problem he then states that we must live with it, all future generations being held hostage by the one original (and there is no other way to say it) flawed version.

Giving God credit for evolution is like giving the ball credit for where it lands on the Roulette wheel. Evolution is pure chance, what happens is purely random and overwhelmingly it is bad things that happen. More species have evolved themselves to oblivion than the opposite. Evolved things aren't necessarily good they just must have the ability to be passed on. A mutant rather than a "sport".
 
So you think it's God's fault that you make poor choices because He didnt make you a mindless robot?
 
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First we give God these all encompassing powers. Omnipotent, omniscient, a real "do anything" kind of guy. Then we say that he was thwarted by man. Thwarted by the very creation that was supposed to be so great.

Rather than fix the problem he then states that we must live with it, all future generations being held hostage by the one original (and there is no other way to say it) flawed version.

Giving God credit for evolution is like giving the ball credit for where it lands on the Roulette wheel. Evolution is pure chance, what happens is purely random and overwhelmingly it is bad things that happen. More species have evolved themselves to oblivion than the opposite. Evolved things aren't necessarily good they just must have the ability to be passed on. A mutant rather than a "sport".

No argument.

Regards
DL
 
So you think it's God's fault that you make poor choices because He didnt make you a mindless robot?

I do not believe in your genocidal son murderer.
Even if real, he would not deserve the respect of any moral man.

Regards
DL
 
Well, it does depend on what you classify as "evil"--I guess I have to read your post to find out, huh?

Edit--I think the "evil" you are given is the legal term for evil. Also, even if some one did not have evil intentions, culpability still falls upon the individual. He can still be found guilty to a lesser charge. Do not forget that there is a such thing as homicidal negligance!

Evil, at times, appears to be more situational than intentional.

A person with evil intent perform an act intending evil consequences--but the act itself end up aiding others --is that evil?

A with good intentions perform an act intending good--but the act itself produces harm to others--is that good?

The story concerning god and the fall of man reminds me of A gun owning parent with kids. If the kids find the gun and shoot themselves, is the parent culpable? If so, then why is not god culpable for the fall of man(Adam and Eve were ignorant and god did place the tree of knowledge within their grasp)?
 
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Well, it does depend on what you classify as "evil"--I guess I have to read your post to find out, huh?

I did not define it. It is subjective. Ask any S & M.

Edit--I think the "evil" you are given is the legal term for evil. Also, even if some one did not have evil intentions, culpability still falls upon the individual. He can still be found guilty to a lesser charge. Do not forget that there is a such thing as homicidal negligance!

No argument.

Evil, at times, appears to be more situational than intentional.

Yes as in when we compete. The winner will see good where the loser will see evil. To evolution, it is all good.

A person with evil intent perform an act intending evil consequences--but the act itself end up aiding others --is that evil?

Every scenario would have to be judged on it's own merit I think. I cannot give a blanket yes or no here.

A with good intentions perform an act intending good--but the act itself produces harm to others--is that good?

Same answer.

The story concerning god and the fall of man reminds me of A gun owning parent with kids. If the kids find the gun and shoot themselves, is the parent culpable? If so, then why is not god culpable for the fall of man(Adam and Eve were ignorant and god did place the tree of knowledge within their grasp)?

Yes. God as representing a parent is culpable for any carelessness on his part and a loaded gun in the house where there are children is negligence.

Regards
DL
 
So you think it's God's fault that you make poor choices because He didnt make you a mindless robot?

I do not believe in your genocidal son murderer.
Even if real, he would not deserve the respect of any moral man.

Regards
DL

What evidence do we have of you being a moral man or knowing what a moral man should or shouldnt respect?

And if you don't believe in your Heavenly Father, why give Him grief? What does it matter to you if other people are uplifted and live better lives because of their faith if you choose not to?
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvKlgiodZ_k]Danzig I'm The One - YouTube[/ame]

"I'm The One"

[Lyrics: Glenn Danzig]

I was born in the dirt
I never had no home
And the places I've lived
You don't wanna know
But if you wanna hear evil
Just come a little bit close

I was a snake-eyed boy
And at the age of five
I made love to the howl of the wolves
With a dark haired girl
So if you wanna hear evil
Come a little bit close

She whispered in my ear
Little boy you the one
Set the world to rights
Make it tremble in fear
Do it one more time
'Cause you the one, you're the one

You're the one, you're the one
You're the one, you're the one
Yea, you're the one
Little boy, you're the one
Do it one more time

She said the path you walk
Gonn' be hard one to tread
'Cause the night is your only love
Lots of girls gonn' be hurt
Said it's part of your fate
'Cause you're the one, you're the one

And now I know my place
In this life I ride
And I know the things I feel
A burning deep inside
So if you want to meet evil
I'm the one, I'm the one

I'm the one, I'm the one
I'm the one, I'm the one
Yea, I'm the one
I'm the one, I'm the one
Do it one more time
 
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Depends on your definition of evil.
Some/many think all those who do not follow their religion are evil.

And if you did not buy a Chicken sandwitch today you are for sure evil and will burn in hell for all eternity!
 
So you think it's God's fault that you make poor choices because He didnt make you a mindless robot?

I do not believe in your genocidal son murderer.
Even if real, he would not deserve the respect of any moral man.

Regards
DL

What evidence do we have of you being a moral man or knowing what a moral man should or shouldnt respect?

And if you don't believe in your Heavenly Father, why give Him grief? What does it matter to you if other people are uplifted and live better lives because of their faith if you choose not to?

Here is why it matters. Compare your morals and those of your ilk to mine.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1]Religulous [part 1] - YouTube[/ame]

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related]In The name Of Jesus: Child Witches (1 of 2) - YouTube[/ame]

Jesus Camp 1of 9
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBv8tv62yGM]Jesus Camp 1of 9.flv - YouTube[/ame]

Promoting death to Gays.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related]Rachel Maddow interviews David Bahati - Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL
 
Depends on your definition of evil.
Some/many think all those who do not follow their religion are evil.

And if you did not buy a Chicken sandwitch today you are for sure evil and will burn in hell for all eternity!

And since none really follow their religion and it's laws, thank all the Gods for that, then all those in religions are evil.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-2_LqOS3uo]Martin Sheen burns a hypo-christian - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL
 
The religion is remittance to where one was expelled for incompetence ... the Everlasting -

being an engineer for the construction of DNA for future generations can not be randomly bestowed to anyone but only to those who will insure by their own knowledge the sequence for life is unalterably enforced.
 

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