Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by GreatestIam, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. GreatestIam
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    GreatestIam VIP Member

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    Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
    And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

    Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
    That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

    Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

    If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

    Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

    Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

    Consider.
    First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
    In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

    Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
    As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
    Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

    Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

    This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

    Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

    There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

    These links speak to theistic evolution.

    America Magazine - Evolution, Evil and Original Sin

    Walking by sight, not by faith - YouTube

    If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

    If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA]Magazine - Can Babies Tell Right From Wrong? - nytimes.com/video - YouTube[/ame]

    Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
    And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

    Regards
    DL
     
  2. onecut39
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    onecut39 VIP Member

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    First we give God these all encompassing powers. Omnipotent, omniscient, a real "do anything" kind of guy. Then we say that he was thwarted by man. Thwarted by the very creation that was supposed to be so great.

    Rather than fix the problem he then states that we must live with it, all future generations being held hostage by the one original (and there is no other way to say it) flawed version.

    Giving God credit for evolution is like giving the ball credit for where it lands on the Roulette wheel. Evolution is pure chance, what happens is purely random and overwhelmingly it is bad things that happen. More species have evolved themselves to oblivion than the opposite. Evolved things aren't necessarily good they just must have the ability to be passed on. A mutant rather than a "sport".
     
  3. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    So you think it's God's fault that you make poor choices because He didnt make you a mindless robot?
     
  4. GreatestIam
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    GreatestIam VIP Member

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    No argument.

    Regards
    DL
     
  5. GreatestIam
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    GreatestIam VIP Member

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    I do not believe in your genocidal son murderer.
    Even if real, he would not deserve the respect of any moral man.

    Regards
    DL
     
  6. amrchaos
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    amrchaos Pentheus torn apart

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    Well, it does depend on what you classify as "evil"--I guess I have to read your post to find out, huh?

    Edit--I think the "evil" you are given is the legal term for evil. Also, even if some one did not have evil intentions, culpability still falls upon the individual. He can still be found guilty to a lesser charge. Do not forget that there is a such thing as homicidal negligance!

    Evil, at times, appears to be more situational than intentional.

    A person with evil intent perform an act intending evil consequences--but the act itself end up aiding others --is that evil?

    A with good intentions perform an act intending good--but the act itself produces harm to others--is that good?

    The story concerning god and the fall of man reminds me of A gun owning parent with kids. If the kids find the gun and shoot themselves, is the parent culpable? If so, then why is not god culpable for the fall of man(Adam and Eve were ignorant and god did place the tree of knowledge within their grasp)?
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
  7. GreatestIam
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    GreatestIam VIP Member

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    Yes. God as representing a parent is culpable for any carelessness on his part and a loaded gun in the house where there are children is negligence.

    Regards
    DL
     
  8. onecut39
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    onecut39 VIP Member

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    False choice. There are many options between mindless robot omniscient being.
     
  9. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    So what are the options between having free will and being a mindless automaton who has to do whatever he/she is told?
     
  10. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    What evidence do we have of you being a moral man or knowing what a moral man should or shouldnt respect?

    And if you don't believe in your Heavenly Father, why give Him grief? What does it matter to you if other people are uplifted and live better lives because of their faith if you choose not to?
     

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