Can you be a truly good Christian, yet be against universal healthcare?

[Care4all]

I don't HAVE to denigrate Cuba at all. It is leftwing whackos in this country who insist that Cuba has a superior healthcare system just because they have a government provided healthcare system -who need a big time REALITY CHECK. Have you missed out on all that PRAISE the lefwing whackos have for the Cuban healthcare system they insist we need to imitate or what? I'm not the one who ever suggested Cuba had a superior system in any way. That has been suggested by MANY people and not just here.

Cuba does not have a superior healthcare system, sorry. The fact their average citizen is heavily taxed for a system that provides far better care for their party elite than the people actually funding it isn't "denigrating" Cuba -it is pointing out REALITY. Fidel isn't paying for his healthcare that the average Cuban will never have -the average Cuban is paying for it even though he can NEVER access it. I don't care how many leftwing whackos insist otherwise. The fact that people are not flocking to Cuba for their healthcare when people from a wide variety of other countries DO come here for their healthcare should tell you something. And it isn't about who is footing the bill for the insurance. I can make an appointment with the very same doctors who are treating Bush -although it may take me a while to be seen. But that would only be due to his practice load -not that I am forbidden from being treated by them. But the average Cuban will never be seen by the doctors treating Fidel. It is the system itself that is corrupt and prevents such a thing. So I guess we should imitate them anyway, huh? Even though the only beneficiaries are the party faithful and not those funding it.

And seriously -after all this time, do you really consider Cuba to be a "developing" country? ROFL Just what are they "developing" that didn't exist when Fidel took power? And why haven't they gotten further along with that "superior" communist system than they have I wonder. And just how long will that "developing" take in your opinion before they aren't a "developing" nation anymore? Why is it people are willing to risk their very lives to escape and Americans can just leave if they want out of our system? So far, the average Cuban has much less access to the average level of healthcare accessed by any recipient of Medicaid anywhere in this country -and that will never change under such a regime and system in Cuba.

Maybe somewhere along the line, some of these leftwing extremists will realize that perhaps more countries need to imitate us instead of insisting we need to imitate countries like Cuba -and recognize the reality that among those who do try to imitate us, they actually end up providing far greater good for their own citizens than countries like Cuba, or its former sponsor state the USSR -could ever do under that system. And that isn't even touching on the subject of how such countries handle political dissidents.

they may not have ''superior'' health care, BUT THEY ALL HAVE healthcare, therefore they live longer than americans do, on average.

our SUPERIOR healthcare is for those with money and good jobs providing health care coverage.....45 million people are not getting this ''superior'' healthcare.

SURE we have the best health care that, MONEY CAN BUY in the entire world....

which DOES NOT reflect us taking care of the Least Among Us, as asked of us by Christ......the Least Among us....

People are selfish in general, and as long as things are ok for themselves and their families, they think NOTHING of the people that are the Least Among us....they got the gvt system to WORK for them, via the gvt giving tax breaks to their Employers that cover their health insurance.....

any of us that gets healthcare from our employers is the federal gvt paying for 1/3 of the cost of it via tax credits and breaks given to the businesses that supply the coverage for us....

So many of YOU are just FINE with the gvt and taxes helping YOU with YOUR healthcare, but God Forbid, the gvt does something to help those that have not benefitted from the gvt "system" set up....

YOur healthcare coverage IS SUBSIDIZED BY OUR GVT THROUGH OUR INCOME TAX SYSTEM.

But no one else should be helped with their healthcare...right....the least among us do not DESERVE what we have right, the least among us don't DESERVE IT?

Seems a little hypocritical to me.....

Care

 

[Gunny]

Jesus also led by example.

How much did he charge people for healing them?

A lot less than you and your plan want to charge me for healing them.

 

[Gunny]

I don't know if universal health care is the answer but I do think that Jesus must wonder why the richest country in the world doesn't take care of its poor. Definitely going to raise some questions about our individual roles in it when we get to the pearly gates.

Though I'm sure fraz will wow him with his bashing of Cuba and rationale on how dead babies get counted.

Frazzledgear is NOT the one that tossed Cuba into the fray. He merely responded to the one who did.

There are those on this board that would argue that "richest country in the world" thing when it suits them to. According to them, we are owned by China.

Where does it say the poor are anyone's responsibility but their own?

 

[jillian]

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

http://bible.cc/matthew/19-21.htm

 

[Care4all]

http://bible.cc/matthew/19-21.htm

And He also said this, one of my favored in scripture that humbles me :

31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and He will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at His right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40 And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me.”’

41 ‘Then He will say to those at His left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45 Then He will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’

This is called the Judgement of Nations...by Jesus at our Second Comming of him...

 

[jillian]

A lot less than you and your plan want to charge me for healing them.

Vat? You vant miracles?

 

[mattskramer]

Don’t ask me. I’ll leave it up to God and Jesus to decide your fate.

 

[Care4all]

Don’t ask me. I’ll leave it up to God and Jesus to decide your fate.

Hahahahahahaha! Well, I pretty much agree with ya there, it certainly ain;'t up to me, i got enough of my own repenting and soul searching to do, let alone to somehow figure out what is gonna happen to the rest of ya! lol

Care

 

[Diuretic]

Frazz - using a single example where an extreme extended temperature event put pressure on the public health system in France is disingenuous to say the least.

Fact is France continually ranks number 1 in the world in health care. The US is way behind. As I've said before, health care in the US is great if you're wealthy, big problems if you're not.

 

[Diuretic]

Personally if we are going to get free health care, I think we should get FREE Legal help too. The Government can then regulate the amount of money Lawyers get paid for their services and provide us all with free services to ensure we get all our legal needs taken care of. Including those lawsuits for money when injuried, no more big paydays for Lawyers, the Government can run it. We need that service too, just as much as Health Care. And then the Government can control one of the BIGGEST Health care costs of all, insurance against Law Suits.

What do ya think Jillian and Dogger? Gonna support this one too?

I've needed a lawyer exactly once (divorce). I've need a doctor and hospital treatment many times.

 

[manifold]

Consider these statistics for a moment

In the United States alone
Over 40 million uninsured, many children, elderly, working poor families
Lucky enough to have a private insurance? You may be denied care, medical claims, etc …
Over million families / individuals file medical bankcrupty every year in the USA. In many other westerns world countries this is unheard of.

US system is most expensive in the world, yet in quality and access it rates poorly, around 30th – 40th compared to other healthcare systems in the world.

… and so on …

So, how does a compassionate Christian defend his/her position in support of private healthcare that leaves so many behind, especially children? Or, if you do believe in private system, do you believe you are a compassionate, good Christian?

Also, is there such a thing that a priest, nun, a monk (the most pious persons) supporting a US-type of healthcare system as lined above, leaving behind scores of persons without healthcare?

Would Jesus approve of private healthcare system considering what is in reality?

I'm personally very conflicted about this particular subject. On one hand I wouldn't want to see anyone sentenced to suffering and/or death for easily treatable ailments simply because they are poor. But on the the other hand, I'm not convinced this is actually happening and I question the validity of many of the statistics. And even if the stats aren't manipulated propaganda, it says nothing about the feasibility and true cost/benefits trade-off from implementing universal healthcare. And then there are the comparisons to other countries that have universal healthcare. Again I question the stats since everyone I know personally that has dealt with these systems (Canada, UK, Ireland) say they totally suck balls. I understand it's only a small handful (about half a dozen) but not one single endorsement from the actual participants still cannot be ignored.

But to answer your question yes, one can be a good, compasionate Christian while opposing tax-payer funded universal healthcare as long as their opposition is based on the belief that it would make things worse.

 

[AllieBaba]

Hospitals in the US are STILL primarily funded by Christian organizations. At least on this side of the country.

Again for the record. People are NOT dying because they cannot access health care because they're poor. There are options and there are no hospitals that refuse treatment to people because of an inability to pay. Health care will not improve with nationalized health care. THe only thing that will happen is more people will die while WAITING for treatment/physicians/etc.

At this point, people only die from lack of treatment because they opt out of treatment.

The only exception I've heard to this was one that somebody posted a week or so ago, about a girl who was refused payment on a potentially life-saving treatment by her insurance company (mistakenly) who reversed its decision, but too late for the girl.

If you think THAT sort of thing won't increase with nationalize health care you are living in la-la land.

 

[Care4all]

Hospitals in the US are STILL primarily funded by Christian organizations. At least on this side of the country.

Again for the record. People are NOT dying because they cannot access health care because they're poor. There are options and there are no hospitals that refuse treatment to people because of an inability to pay. Health care will not improve with nationalized health care. THe only thing that will happen is more people will die while WAITING for treatment/physicians/etc.

At this point, people only die from lack of treatment because they opt out of treatment.

The only exception I've heard to this was one that somebody posted a week or so ago, about a girl who was refused payment on a potentially life-saving treatment by her insurance company (mistakenly) who reversed its decision, but too late for the girl.

If you think THAT sort of thing won't increase with nationalize health care you are living in la-la land.

Who is paying for these 45 million Americans without healthcare insurance when they use the emergency room as a Doctor's office though? Is it ONLY the Hospital that picks up the tabs on the uninsured? Do the Tax payers pick up this cost for some of them? Or do those that have to pay the very high insurance premium for healthcover really pay the cost of this healthcare that you say these 45 million have access to?

In my area of the country there are very very few churches that run the hospitals and a bunch of FOR PROFITS, and some NON-profits...who are not "church" run.... i don't know of any church run hospitals in my region of maine, at all....in fact.

 

[jillian]

Who is paying for these 45 million Americans without healthcare insurance when they use the emergency room as a Doctor's office though? Is it ONLY the Hospital that picks up the tabs on the uninsured? Do the Tax payers pick up this cost for some of them? Or do those that have to pay the very high insurance premium for healthcover really pay the cost of this healthcare that you say these 45 million have access to?

In my area of the country there are very very few churches that run the hospitals and a bunch of FOR PROFITS, and some NON-profits...who are not "church" run.... i don't know of any church run hospitals in my region of maine, at all....in fact.

If I go to Columbia/Presbyterian or Long Island Jewish, I can assure you that no one is picking up the tab for me if I don't have health insurance. I can also tell you that those hospitals will charge someone without health insurance more for a procedure than they will charge someone for the indentical procedure who is insured.

 

[Ravi]

If I go to Columbia/Presbyterian or Long Island Jewish, I can assure you that no one is picking up the tab for me if I don't have health insurance. I can also tell you that those hospitals will charge someone without health insurance more for a procedure than they will charge someone for the indentical procedure who is insured.

Isn't that because insurance companies limit the amount hospitals, etc., can charge?

 

[jillian]

Isn't that because insurance companies limit the amount hospitals, etc., can charge?

There's some type of agreement. I've always thought it was pretty disgusting.

 

[Care4all]

If I go to Columbia/Presbyterian or Long Island Jewish, I can assure you that no one is picking up the tab for me if I don't have health insurance. I can also tell you that those hospitals will charge someone without health insurance more for a procedure than they will charge someone for the indentical procedure who is insured.

Yes, charging more for the person without insurance more, who usually does not have the money. (part of their tax write off scam) And each insurance company can be be charged differently too....takes a load of paperwork and different forms depending if an individual or depending on what insurance company etc....

This is part of the "streamline the billing and paperwork" plan that the democrats have on helping to reduce healthcare costs.

When in Florida, we had a few Baptist Hospitals....and St. Something Hospitals, but the Mega Hospitals were City/State Hospitals like Jackson Memorial Hospital/University of Miami Medical Center in Miami...

way up here, where i am in maine, we are lucky to have A hospital imo! Though, i did read somewhere that maine's biggest employer is their Hospitals....then retail stores i think? Potato growers, Lobstermen, Papermills/Logging, Fishermen and Blueberry growers fits in there somewhere too....hahahahaha! Oh and I am certain "government" employs alot!

care

 

[MsWikia]

Reading this thread is funny ... many forget being a Christian is a way of life, it's a lifestyle. Being a Christian doesn’t mean you now have to follow a set of rules or participate in a set of ritualistic practices: be good and do good, pay tithes, go to church etc. it means you are now forming a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Being a Christian means that your heart has changed. You are not required to do anything; however you now DESIRE to do those things because you have been changed. Thus, every aspect in your life, politics too, should be a reflection of the Lords love, teachings and commandments. We should please God by applying His Word to our society.

The Bible, the written word of God tells us everything we need to know about how we should live our lives. So it does mention how we should treat and care for each other, poor or rich. In Dt 15:4 says, there should be no poor among you, Psalm 82:3 tells us maintain the rights of the poor, Dt 24: 10-22 tells us to give the poor opportunities to better their situation, Isaiah 58:6,7 tells us our faith lacks sincerity if we do not reach out to others, and Luke 10:27 tells us to Love your Neighbor as yourself.

In Matthew 25 Jesus separated the pretenders from the obedient followers saying, "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me". So the real evidence of our belief is how we act. Treating everyone we encounter as if they are Jesus is not easy; however, what we do for others demonstrates how we feel about Jesus' words to us: feed the hungry, give the homeless a place to stay, look after the sick.

Therefore, if universal healthcare offers everyone a chance to receive treatment without finances being an issue, wouldn't that fall under looking after the sick, giving the poor opportunities to better their situation, loving our neighbor and keeping them in good health?? I would think so. Christians, obedient believers, should really apply Gods word to every part of their life no matter how tough it is, i.e. paying more taxes for the sake of everyone receiving healthcare, God would be pleased by your sacrifice: Hebrews 13 “ And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.”

 

[frazzledgear]

I don't know if universal health care is the answer but I do think that Jesus must wonder why the richest country in the world doesn't take care of its poor. Definitely going to raise some questions about our individual roles in it when we get to the pearly gates.

Though I'm sure fraz will wow him with his bashing of Cuba and rationale on how dead babies get counted.

In what way does this country not take care of its poor? Care to explain that one? I don't have to compare our country to one like Cuba -I'll compare it to any other country. Exactly what is it this country isn't doing for its poor that you think it should be doing -or is somehow being done better by other countries?

Ever check the statistics on the standard of living of our poor and compare that to the standard of living of the poor in other countries -much less against the World Health Organization's and UN's definition of "poor" and their standard of living? All countries define their "poor" according to their OWN definition -there is no universally used definition of "poor" and no means of forcing all countries to use the identical definition. So the percent of their population a country declares to be "poor" isn't enough -take a look at the standard of living.

Last year the US Census Bureau released their report which declared 35 million people lived in poverty in the US. That only applies to the US and nowhere else in the world -it is not comparable to the statistics from any other nation because no other nation uses our own definition of "poverty". Norway declared that 11% of their population lived below the poverty line -but if using OUR definition, then more than 30% of all Norwegians are living in "dire" poverty -even though they aren't.

To you no doubt, like most people -the word "poverty" means "destitute" and the inability to provide oneself or family with nutritious food and adequate shelter ect. right? The definition used by global organizations and the World Bank define "poverty" as an income at or below $1 a day -or $365 a year. The biggest healthcare concern for the world's poor is a LACK of calories. Their second biggest concern is a lack of adequate shelter against the elements. The world's poor are constantly struggling against starvation and succumbing to the elements due to a lack of adequate shelter -and nearly 1/4 the planet's population is facing that. But that isn't the definition we use HERE for our own country. We define it based on what our wealthiest earn, it is an income-based measure and definition of "poverty". And since we have chosen to define it that way -it means "poverty" will never disappear in this country as long as we continue to define it that way. The only kind of poverty in the US is "relative poverty" -relative to the wealthiest, and is not a measurement of what they actually lack.

According to a variety of government reports:

1. 46% of US poor own their own homes and of those who do, more than 80% are in good repair.
2. 76% of US poor have air conditioned homes. Keep in mind that just 30 years ago, only 36% of the ENTIRE US population had air conditioning.
3. More than 2/3 of the US poor have at least 2 rooms PER PERSON. Which is more than the living space of the AVERAGE person living in Paris, London, Athens, Vienna and other European cities.
4. Nearly 75% of US poor own at least one car and 30% own more than one car.
5. 97% of US poor own at least one color TV, more than 50% own more than one color TV.
6. 78% of US poor own a VCR or DVD player and 62% have cable or satellite TV reception.
7. Poverty in the US is not static -which means just five years ago, who was on the bottom is not the same as those today -and who will be on the bottom five years from now will also be different. In this country, unlike most other countries - it very much tends to be a temporary condition -not permanent. In fact, 30% of those who were in the bottom of all income earners in 1975 were among the top fifth of income earners in 1991. There is no other country in the world that has the opportunities for the poorest to move up in class as this one -that was true in the past, it is still true today.
8. The average income for the average "poor" family of 4 in the US is $22,200. Just not comparable to the definition of poverty for a family of four used by the World Bank as at or below $800 a year.

And most importantly, the biggest healthcare concern for the US poor is OBESITY, consuming too many calories. Should be a clue for you when the biggest healthcare concern of OUR poorest is the exact opposite of the world's poor. Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to readily obtain medical care at no cost. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs.

In reality, the rich are getting richer in this country and the poor are getting richer too. There is nothing remotely resembling the poverty of yesteryear in this country today. Using the definition of international organizations and the World Bank, our own "poor" are considered middle income and our middle income are considered "wealthy". What other country in the world would you rather be born to poor parents over this country -and WHY?

Do any of you people actually ever travel outside this country and see anything besides the tourist spots?

Because we define "poverty" in comparison to our wealthiest, our typical poor person has air conditioning, a washer and dryer, a car, cable TV -all of which are LUXURIES, not essentials. We do not use the definition of poverty used by international organizations or the World Bank because it is TOTALLY inappropriate in this country. Besides which, what possible political points can be scored by liberals by pointing out the truth -that our poorest have a living standard the envy of the world's poor? (Which explains why they keep coming here instead of staying put and being poor -being poor in the US is a huge increase in their standard of living over being poor in most any other country.)

So exactly in what way is this country shortchanging its own poor and exactly which countries are providing a far better standard of living to their poor and we should be ashamed by comparison? Just where are those stats showing all those other countries provide a much better standard of living for THEIR poorest?

We do EVERYTHING for our poor -and we do it so damn well, that entire generations have grown up relying on government to provide it for them instead of relying on and providing it for themselves -which we recognize is also a big problem.

As to the ORIGINAL question -I'm still waiting for ANYONE to convince me that not only is government taking over healthcare for every single person the ONLY possible way to handle the problem of those with inadequate insurance or unable to pay for it -but it is the BEST way as well. And why it isn't when it comes the REAL essentials we all need just to survive -like food. Until then -I firmly believe there is no way Jesus would insist everyone else must assume onerous taxes, sacrifice their own health and even life expectancy as the only AND best possible solution. We managed to figure out how to do that for the very things every single person MUST have just to survive. And if having government provide every single person with their daily ration of food wasn't the best possible solution when it comes to the things we all actually MUST have to survive, like food - then it sure as hell isn't the best one when it comes to health insurance.

 

[Ravi]

Wow! I'm sure you'll dazzle Jesus with your convincing case that poor people don't actually exist in the USA.

btw, according to wiki:

The "absolute poverty line" is the threshold below which families or individuals are considered to be lacking the resources to meet the basic needs for healthy living; having insufficient income to provide the food, shelter and clothing needed to preserve health.