Bull Ring Can the universe be used as evidence for a creator. ding vs Soupnazi630

Discussion in 'The Bull Ring' started by ding, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. Tijn Von Ingersleben
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    Tijn Von Ingersleben Gold Member

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    Yeap..it CAN be used sure...now where is your evidence?
     
  2. ding
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    ding Confront reality

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    Thank you. Now let's move to step #2. Mind you this step is not intended to prove that God exists. It is intended to prove that if God does exist and did intend to create beings that know and create through natural processes that his creation would in fact be evidence of his existence.

    Think of it this way, you die and meet your maker and you tell him that he didn't give you any evidence to believe in his existence and he responds I gave you creation as evidence for my existence, are you going to argue with the "being" that created space and time?

    The point of this step is to open your mind to the possibility. Think of it as Paschal's wager if you like.

    If you can agree to this, we can move to the discussion you have wanted to have all along. Fair enough?
     
  3. Tijn Von Ingersleben
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    Tijn Von Ingersleben Gold Member

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    Yes..because if he did create me he also created the aspect which REQUIRES me to process the world around me analytically. How could an omniscient being expect me to stop thinking on one subject? Then penalize me for it? No.

    Ok, sure, why not. I'm an open book.
     
  4. ding
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    ding Confront reality

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    No one said anything about being penalized. That is you making an assumption.

    Why wouldn't you assume the error was yours and not his?

    Why wouldn't you assume he had a reason for doing it the way he did?

    Are you telling me that if you met your maker you wouldn't try to understand where you went wrong and why it was the way it was? I mean after all, you would have the proof you were looking for right in front of you, right? Why wouldn't you try to understand the reason for why you failed to see his existence in what he created? And the reason behind his methods?
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  5. ding
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    ding Confront reality

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    Thank you, but I am not convinced you are an open book because you just admitted that even if you were confronted with God's existence, you would still deny your error and question his methods.

    But I am happy enough to go on with the discussion.
     
  6. ding
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    ding Confront reality

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    So let's examine the evidence.

    1. We live in a deterministic universe governed by rules.
     
  7. Tijn Von Ingersleben
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    Tijn Von Ingersleben Gold Member

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    Yes...logically speaking...would you disagree? Since he would have created logical thought...it would only stand to reason.

    Refer to first response

    Because assumption of the unknown often leads to failure. It does not stand to reason for me. Further, if a god created me then it would understand me perfectly and could predict my response. Therefore if he chastised me for not believing then he should probably look inward...however he wouldn't need to look inward because he also created and perfectly understands introspection.
    You see the omniscience game works both ways. When a being is omniscient there is nothing to chance.

    No...I would be confused for the afore reasons. Plus I would be a bit annoyed that I was being questioned by a being who knows everything already. It's kinda like talking to your cat...not even a cat...a houseplant...this is omniscience we are talking here.

    Yeap.

    Aforementioned.
     
  8. ding
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    ding Confront reality

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    In this hypothetical scenario, the fact that he did exist and did create space and time and the laws of nature which predestined beings that know and create, logic would dictate that YOUR logical thought that he could not be proven to exist by observation and logic would be wrong.

    Which means that it would be illogical for you to not try to understand your error.

    But in this case you were presented with evidence that proved you were wrong so the assumption would only be about something you knew was wrong and it would be illogical not to try to understand your error.

    No one has said anything about you being chastised. Only that you were proven wrong.

    You would be upset because he didn't do things the way you would have done? You wouldn't be curious why he did things the way he did?
     
  9. ding
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    ding Confront reality

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    So let's examine the evidence.

    1. We live in a deterministic universe governed by rules.

    Right or wrong?
     
  10. Tijn Von Ingersleben
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    Tijn Von Ingersleben Gold Member

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    Well if I were given the ability in this scenario to know of an all knowing beings existence then of course I would follow it.
    I would not question it and I would do exactly what it said. To do contrary would be ridiculous.
     

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