Can Science Prove Christ Really Existed?

[Madeline]

We know there was a King Tut because we have his remains, along with tons (literally) of written descriptions of his life, made during his life. But do we have that sort of archeological evidence that a person named Jesus Christ ever existed?

If I am recollecting this right, Jesus was born in Nazareth because Joseph and Mary had had to travel there to be counted for some sort of Roman census. Did any document of that census survive the mists of time? I know about the Shroud of Turin -- anyone here convinced that it serves as scientific/historical evidence that Jesus really existed?

If there is no physical proof that he existed, is it possible to say that the books of the Bible, written so long after his death is said to have happened and with so little agreement amongst them, establishes the fact of his existence as a matter of science?

From what I can gather, there is not much doubt that Buddha existed, or that Joseph Smith did. I just wondered, do we have that level of certainty that a historical figure named Jesus Christ ever existed?

And before you ask, this is not in the Religion Forum because I am not looking to debate the matter with folks who "accept Jesus". Any religious person should be able to tell you that faith and scientific proof are not the same thing.

 

[Anguille]

It's not likely that science will ever prove Jesus really existed since no physical evidence remains or has been discovered. Even if it were proven that a guy named Jesus existed at the time the bible claims her did, there is still no proof he was one or more of the several personalities attributed to him in the Bible. The Roman census story is bogus.

 

[del]

there is as much proof that jesus existed as there is of the existence of buddha or confucius. josephus, pliny, tacitus and suetonius, among others, all mention him in their histories.

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, no, all of these people do not mention Jesus in there histories. Not only that, the mention in Josephus's writings has been deemed a forgery by many scholars.

Much of the life of Jesus in the New Testement is taken from prior stories about other God-Humans in the cultures of the Middle East. Just as the story of Noah was predated by Babylonian myths.

Did Jesus Christ exist? All sides to the question

He asserts that there are a number of historical and mythical figures whose life stories contain these elements, including Jesus. But just as we do not regard Hercules as a historical figure, a case can be made that Jesus was also a mythical character.

Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism. The religion was founded in Persia before the birth of Christianity.

Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. 19 Other early Christians believed that Satan invented Mithraism and that he made Mithra's life and the practices of the religion identical to what Christianity would become centuries later. They felt that Satan's purpose was to confuse believers.

Many religious historians have noted the many parallels between events in the life of Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) and God-men from ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc

 

[FLGoldilocks]

I don't think it's so much a matter of whether he existed, but whether he existed in the way that the Bible and religious folk claim. I think it's entirely possible, in fact even quite probable that there was someone named Jesus, born to a couple named Mary and Joseph. Whether or not he was the son of God, was crucified, raised from the dead, healer of lepers, etc., are the things in question for me. Personally, as an atheist, I don't think so. And I don't know that science could prove those things. I think science could prove, if his remains were found, that he existed, as a person, but as to the rest, I don't think that could ever be proven or disproven. Hence the reason that all religion is based on faith.

 

[Anguille]

Does it really matter if Jesus actually existed? Would his non existance invalidate his message?

 

[del]

Well, no, all of these people do not mention Jesus in there histories. Not only that, the mention in Josephus's writings has been deemed a forgery by many scholars.

Much of the life of Jesus in the New Testement is taken from prior stories about other God-Humans in the cultures of the Middle East. Just as the story of Noah was predated by Babylonian myths.

Did Jesus Christ exist? All sides to the question

He asserts that there are a number of historical and mythical figures whose life stories contain these elements, including Jesus. But just as we do not regard Hercules as a historical figure, a case can be made that Jesus was also a mythical character.

Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism. The religion was founded in Persia before the birth of Christianity.

Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. 19 Other early Christians believed that Satan invented Mithraism and that he made Mithra's life and the practices of the religion identical to what Christianity would become centuries later. They felt that Satan's purpose was to confuse believers.

Many religious historians have noted the many parallels between events in the life of Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) and God-men from ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc

well, no, they all do mention jesus in their histories. the debate over the authenticity of one passage in josephus' histories is well known, but other mention of him is accepted as authentic.

if it bothers you to believe the man existed, then don't.

 

[Anguille]

Well, no, all of these people do not mention Jesus in there histories. Not only that, the mention in Josephus's writings has been deemed a forgery by many scholars.

Much of the life of Jesus in the New Testement is taken from prior stories about other God-Humans in the cultures of the Middle East. Just as the story of Noah was predated by Babylonian myths.

Did Jesus Christ exist? All sides to the question

He asserts that there are a number of historical and mythical figures whose life stories contain these elements, including Jesus. But just as we do not regard Hercules as a historical figure, a case can be made that Jesus was also a mythical character.

Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism. The religion was founded in Persia before the birth of Christianity.

Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. 19 Other early Christians believed that Satan invented Mithraism and that he made Mithra's life and the practices of the religion identical to what Christianity would become centuries later. They felt that Satan's purpose was to confuse believers.

Many religious historians have noted the many parallels between events in the life of Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) and God-men from ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc

well, no, they all do mention jesus in their histories. the debate over the authenticity of one passage in josephus' histories is well known, but other mention of him is accepted as authentic.

if it bothers you to believe the man existed, then don't.

Weren't they all going an hearsay anyway? Back then many people believed sea monsters and all sorts of fantastical creatures existed.

 

[del]

Well, no, all of these people do not mention Jesus in there histories. Not only that, the mention in Josephus's writings has been deemed a forgery by many scholars.

Much of the life of Jesus in the New Testement is taken from prior stories about other God-Humans in the cultures of the Middle East. Just as the story of Noah was predated by Babylonian myths.

Did Jesus Christ exist? All sides to the question

He asserts that there are a number of historical and mythical figures whose life stories contain these elements, including Jesus. But just as we do not regard Hercules as a historical figure, a case can be made that Jesus was also a mythical character.

Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism. The religion was founded in Persia before the birth of Christianity.

Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. 19 Other early Christians believed that Satan invented Mithraism and that he made Mithra's life and the practices of the religion identical to what Christianity would become centuries later. They felt that Satan's purpose was to confuse believers.

Many religious historians have noted the many parallels between events in the life of Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) and God-men from ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc

well, no, they all do mention jesus in their histories. the debate over the authenticity of one passage in josephus' histories is well known, but other mention of him is accepted as authentic.

if it bothers you to believe the man existed, then don't.

Weren't they all going an hearsay anyway? Back then many people believed sea monsters and all sorts of fantastical creatures existed.

believing a man existed and writing about him more or less contemporaneously is not quite the same as believing in sea monsters, imo.

 

[Anguille]

well, no, they all do mention jesus in their histories. the debate over the authenticity of one passage in josephus' histories is well known, but other mention of him is accepted as authentic.

if it bothers you to believe the man existed, then don't.

Weren't they all going an hearsay anyway? Back then many people believed sea monsters and all sorts of fantastical creatures existed.

believing a man existed and writing about him more or less contemporaneously is not quite the same as believing in sea monsters, imo.

I suppose. If they believed everything they read on the internet.

 

[del]

Weren't they all going an hearsay anyway? Back then many people believed sea monsters and all sorts of fantastical creatures existed.

believing a man existed and writing about him more or less contemporaneously is not quite the same as believing in sea monsters, imo.

I suppose. If they believed everything they read on the internet.

doesn't everyone?

 

[geauxtohell]

Science might be able to prove that Jesus existed via DNA but they can't prove he was divine.

The scientific method makes no provisions for the supernatural.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

They can't prove he existed because they don't have the body. And if the bible is to be taken at face value, they never will.

Even now it is hard to find details on a random particular journeyman carpenter who fell afoul of the law in the back of beyond parts of the country.

 

[Dr Gregg]

No, likely because he wasn't real in the first place

The only real texts regarding jesus was the bible. NO other recorded history shows evidence of any of those stories.

Plus, king tut, and other historical figures, even though people would revere him as a god, history wasn't full of absurd, physically impossible and magical stories.

 

[Anguille]

Can Science Prove Madeline Really Exists?

 

[Madeline]

It's not likely that science will ever prove Jesus really existed since no physical evidence remains or has been discovered. Even if it were proven that a guy named Jesus existed at the time the bible claims her did, there is still no proof he was one or more of the several personalities attributed to him in the Bible. The Roman census story is bogus.

Really? The census was not taken? How confusing. Why do so many seem to believe that Nazareth was really Jesus' birthplace, then?

The RCC is overly fond of relics, and when I was growing up, it was pretty common to be offered a chance to "buy a piece of the One True Cross" at a religious supply store or through a Catholic magazine. How on earth could anyone ever source wood from 2,000 years ago and prove it was used in the crucifixation?

 

[Madeline]

there is as much proof that jesus existed as there is of the existence of buddha or confucius. josephus, pliny, tacitus and suetonius, among others, all mention him in their histories.

Pliny I recognized. An Ancient Roman military officer and author, am I right? Pliny the Elder was never in Israel, that I can tell...and he was not born until 23 years after Christ is said to have died. At best he could have recorded an oral history taken from others.

Pliny the Elder: Biography from Answers.com

Is such oral history-taking enough, as a matter of archeology, to "prove" Christ really existed?

 

[Madeline]

Well, no, all of these people do not mention Jesus in there histories. Not only that, the mention in Josephus's writings has been deemed a forgery by many scholars.

Much of the life of Jesus in the New Testement is taken from prior stories about other God-Humans in the cultures of the Middle East. Just as the story of Noah was predated by Babylonian myths.

Did Jesus Christ exist? All sides to the question

He asserts that there are a number of historical and mythical figures whose life stories contain these elements, including Jesus. But just as we do not regard Hercules as a historical figure, a case can be made that Jesus was also a mythical character.

Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism. The religion was founded in Persia before the birth of Christianity.

Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. 19 Other early Christians believed that Satan invented Mithraism and that he made Mithra's life and the practices of the religion identical to what Christianity would become centuries later. They felt that Satan's purpose was to confuse believers.

Many religious historians have noted the many parallels between events in the life of Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) and God-men from ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc

Wow...that's amazing. I had never heard any of this, but it does answer one question I have always had. Judaism tolerates such diversity of beliefs and has no hierarchial power structure. If Jesus was a real person with a new take on how to get right with God, then why weren't his followers seen as just some new flavor of Jews, rather than a completely separate sect?

 

[Madeline]

Does it really matter if Jesus actually existed? Would his non existance invalidate his message?

Well, I am not asking this question in an effort to undermine anyone's faith, Anguille. I guess to be honest, I'm just curious. I have always wondered but until now, there was nobody I could ask.

I thought that there was very little speculation on the existence of Buddha because, among other things, he left behind a written record -- his own autobiography. Joseph Smith still has living descendents and his existence is provable from records that were made at the time...property tax rolls, etc.

I don't know much about the Muslim faith and I was under the impression that they believe Mohammed was a Prophet in the form of an angel or Holy Spirit, not an actual man.

Jews do not really have just one man who founded their faith, but most I know accept that the people of the Old Testament actually existed, at least most of them. Moses and King David, for example, if not Adam and Eve.

 

[Madeline]

Science might be able to prove that Jesus existed via DNA but they can't prove he was divine.

The scientific method makes no provisions for the supernatural.

How could science prove Jesus existed using DNA? He was said to have had no children and no siblings...whose DNA would we test?

I know that science cannot prove his divinity...that isn't what I'm asking. I'm curious if there was a real person whose life had significantly the same markers attributed to Jesus Christ. Jewish, born in Nazareth, lived 33 years, died in a Roman crucifixtion?

Are there any records of the Romans that have survived that were made at the time he is said to have lived and mention him?

Are the Dead Sea Scrolls relevant to this question?