Can a liberal be a Christian?

[menewa]

Originally posted by leojoeyjoe
(holds up a COIN) "render unto caesar what is caesar's..."

I seriously doubt that Jesus wanted poor, oppressed people to pay taxes to an emperor that had a so-called divine right to rule. Caesar's claimed to be gods. This line from the Bible goes against Christianity as far as I'm concerned. I think that line was installed by the Catholic Church after they seized the religion.

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
As for the commune state. Dont know where you are getting that. He didnt live anywhere. He was a wanderer. How can He live in a commune state if he was always wandering and preaching?

I used a bad choice of words. I meant communistic in the sense that what he had he shared with all. It seemed that the concept of individual ownership was antithetical to his lifestyle.

 

[leojoeyjoe]

"your" definition, meaning "your chosen definition"....
and both definitions are not mutually exclusive...I was showing how the lexical definition relates to the definition you provided...one is inclusive of the other...can you walk and chew gum at the same time? saying "at least semantically" clarifies that I was "quibbling over semantics"....I am not baiting and attacking but you are attacking so much that you cannot see that...I merely chimed in to add the etymological side of a word you clearly value......
God bless, brother....

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
What is faith? Can you honestly say you have faith in Christ if you dont atleast try to follow His example and teachings? If you dont have faith in Christ to believe His doctrines Then in what way do you have faith?

Show me your faith without obedience, and i will show you mind with it. Faith without works is dead.

I agree completely with this post. It seems some Christians now think it is good enough to simply believe he's a savior and that's it. However, I think it really takes work through study of the text and some level of sacrifice.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by menewa
I agree completely with this post. It seems some Christians now think it is good enough to simply believe he's a savior and that's it. However, I think it really takes work through study of the text and some level of sacrifice.

Am I wrong, but aren't you all sounding a bit Catholic here? I thought Protestantism was based on the idea of saved through belief in Christ alone?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Kathianne
Am I wrong, but aren't you all sounding a bit Catholic here? I thought Protestantism was based on the idea of saved through belief in Christ alone?

Welcome to the end times.

 

[KLSuddeth]

Thank you those of you that have offered support in regards to what I posted. Its appreciated very much! Its been a long time since that happened....but not a day goes by that I dont think about and miss my lost children. My comfort is in knowing that everything happens for a reason, and that even though I never held them in my arms, I still feel that I knew them for a short time since we shared a body; I also feel that Im a better person for simply HAVING KNOWN them.

The other part of what I wanted to touch on is the fact that many people consider those of us who are metaphysical to not be Christians - this is another thing that vexes me. I cannot understand this at all, and believe me, Ive tried.

Im not trying to lead anyone into a flame war; Im truly curious.....I would really appreciate some opinions regarding this.

Thanks!

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
Thank you those of you that have offered support in regards to what I posted. Its appreciated very much! Its been a long time since that happened....but not a day goes by that I dont think about and miss my lost children. My comfort is in knowing that everything happens for a reason, and that even though I never held them in my arms, I still feel that I knew them for a short time since we shared a body; I also feel that Im a better person for simply HAVING KNOWN them.

The other part of what I wanted to touch on is the fact that many people consider those of us who are metaphysical to not be Christians - this is another thing that vexes me. I cannot understand this at all, and believe me, Ive tried.

Im not trying to lead anyone into a flame war; Im truly curious.....I would really appreciate some opinions regarding this.

Thanks!

Hey KL, I am open to whatever anyone believes, as long as they don't want to take me and my fellow citizens down or attempt to convert us to their beliefs.

I'm Catholic, so metaphysics and Christian fit right in with my belief system. Now all those flamers can get me, for not buying into their belief system. Like it or not, we are Christians.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
The other part of what I wanted to touch on is the fact that many people consider those of us who are metaphysical to not be Christians - this is another thing that vexes me. I cannot understand this at all, and believe me, Ive tried.

Im not trying to lead anyone into a flame war; Im truly curious.....I would really appreciate some opinions regarding this.

Thanks! [/B]

Lanyce, here's my take, which I think is pretty Biblically sound:

In the Bible, we see that those who are called "Christians" were those who believed that Jesus was alive, killed by crucifixion, and then raised again from the dead as proof that He is the Son of God, and that by his death and resurrection, we can be reconciled with God. Here are a couple of Bible passages that I base that on:

Acts 2:36-38: "(Peter speaking)'Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.' When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, 'Brothers, what shall we do?' Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"
As Peter says later on, there is no other name by which people should be saved except for the name of Jesus.

Romans 10:8-9,13: "[T]hat is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved... for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
We see that faith is what saves us, and that God's saving grace is available to everyone.

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Our ability to "save ourselves" is not sufficient; only by faith in God can we hope to be saved.

My belief - again, from what I find in the Bible - is that unless a person believes in Christ's divinity and puts their trust in His ability to save them from their sins, that a person cannot be saved. I would encourage you to read the book of Romans, which is a great theological essay, if you want to get a really good picture of Christian beliefs.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by NewGuy
We both know works are a measure of faith. Weak faith can produce weak works not visible from a third person's perspective.



Agreed.

Works without faith is too.

HOWEVER.....Obedience is not -as well as works are not-...a prerequisite for faith.

What obedience did that thief have and what works did he do hanging next to Jesus?

Of course obedience is not a prerequisite for faith. Faith is a prerequisite for Faith.

As for the thief. i find it completely silly bringing him up to prove you to say that obedience is unecessary. For one, you dont know anything about his life other than what happened on the cross. He may have been a thief who was converted to Christ and went and turned himself in order to repent fully. He could have been baptized with all the rest of the Saints. the simple fact is, no one knows what he did other than what happened on the cross.

Even then the argument is weak because, the thief defended Christ on the Cross. That is a work, he also asked for a blessing which of course was action if not a work per say. The Thief offered a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

of course then there is always addressing the argument whether Christ promised he would be saved in heaven at all. That would be an interesting discussion because we know that what Christ did promise the thief is that they would be in paradise together that day. However, after the Resurrection Christ told Mary He still hadnt gone to see the Father in Heaven. So if Christ has been in paradise after He died and had yet to ascend to Heaven after the Resurrection, logically paradise and heaven cannot be the same place.

Yeah so thats my spiel. Its one of my pet peeves when people look at the thief and try to justify not needing to be obedient on that. Its just a superfulous look at what the scripture says rather than actually trying to figure out and think about it. the only other scripture that really bugs me that way is the "Gate of Hades not prevailing over the Church" arguments from Matthew 16. people take a surface reading of it and dont actually think about the imagery and what is really said. its annoying sometimes. ENough of my rant.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by menewa
I used a bad choice of words. I meant communistic in the sense that what he had he shared with all. It seemed that the concept of individual ownership was antithetical to his lifestyle.

Ive yet to see any evidence of that. What i do see evidence of is that He emphasized individual ownership isnt the end all of life. that having money doesnt make you more worthy.

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
Ive yet to see any evidence of that. What i do see evidence of is that He emphasized individual ownership isnt the end all of life. that having money doesnt make you more worthy.

What about the camel passing through the eye of a needle is more probable than a rich man ascending to heaven phrase?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
Of course obedience is not a prerequisite for faith. Faith is a prerequisite for Faith.

Whatever that means.

As for the thief. i find it completely silly bringing him up to prove you to say that obedience is unecessary. For one, you dont know anything about his life other than what happened on the cross. He may have been a thief who was converted to Christ and went and turned himself in order to repent fully. He could have been baptized with all the rest of the Saints. the simple fact is, no one knows what he did other than what happened on the cross.

-And since he ended up comitting himself to Christ on the cross, that was when Christ accepted him into heaven, wasn't it? Hmmm....sounds justified to me.

You call it silly becasue you ignore Biblical text. NOTHING Biblical is silly.

Even then the argument is weak because, the thief defended Christ on the Cross. That is a work, he also asked for a blessing which of course was action if not a work per say. The Thief offered a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

-And yet still was not offered heaven until fully accepting Christ after all else.
-Which, again, makes your point moot.

of course then there is always addressing the argument whether Christ promised he would be saved in heaven at all. That would be an interesting discussion because we know that what Christ did promise the thief is that they would be in paradise together that day. However, after the Resurrection Christ told Mary He still hadnt gone to see the Father in Heaven. So if Christ has been in paradise after He died and had yet to ascend to Heaven after the Resurrection, logically paradise and heaven cannot be the same place.

Easily adressed in the following info on Jesus and Paradise:

At that point in time paradise was located inside the earth in Hades which was divided into two primary parts as seen in Luke 16. The righteous went to the side called paradise (Abraham's bosom) the unrighteous went to Gehenna (hell).

The meaning is obvious in the context of the statement. He would be with Jesus, -where did Jesus go that day? Paradise.

Eph. 4:8-10 Therefore he says "when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men" "Now this he ascended what does it mean but that he first descended into the lower parts of the earth. 10: He who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens that he might fill all things."

Those who had been waiting in faith in the compartment called Paradise (Abraham's bosom) were led in ascending to heaven with Jesus in his ascension. Jesus descending to the lowest parts first means he went from the farthest heights to the lowest. The lower parts of the earth is the word Hades. The word Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are two different words for the same thing.

Mt. 12:40 tells us that the location of Hades is in the center of the earth. This could refer to the incarnation although in its context it appears to mean he descended into the area of Hades to receive those out he would ascend with.

After the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus paradise was moved to heaven. The area for the righteous was emptied out, now the believer goes directly to heaven. From the New Testament teaching we find that the new location of paradise is heaven.

Jesus stated in Jn. 14:2-4 that he went ahead of us to prepare a place in heaven which is where his father dwells. That where he is we may be also.

When Stephen was martyred he looked up to heaven saying Lord Jesus receive my Spirit. He knew he was going to be immediately transferred into heaven the location of the Lord.

When Christ ascended he led captivity captive (Eph.4:8-10), those who had waited in faith in Abraham's bosom for their sins to be removed were gathered together in another place, the new Paradise in heaven.

Rev.2:7 "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God which is now in heaven. In Rev.22:2 we find this tree is located in the new Jerusalem (Heb.12:22-24).(Whether this is symbolic or literal is a matter of view, the fact is we will partake of it) The location of paradise will again change in the future to be on the new earth, as the new Jerusalem comes down and the dwelling place of God is with man (Rev.21:1- Rev.22).

Yeah so thats my spiel. Its one of my pet peeves when people look at the thief and try to justify not needing to be obedient on that. Its just a superfulous look at what the scripture says rather than actually trying to figure out and think about it.

Hmmm...Seems to me you are trying to fill in blanks that don't even exist.

the only other scripture that really bugs me that way is the "Gate of Hades not prevailing over the Church" arguments from Matthew 16. people take a surface reading of it and dont actually think about the imagery and what is really said. its annoying sometimes. ENough of my rant.

How about illuminating us with an incorrect understanding of that one too then?

 

[deaddude]

"You call it silly because you ignore Biblical text. NOTHING Biblical is silly"

oh please NewGuy did you sacrifice a lamb on pass over? No?

Textbook definition of Faith: belief in something without needing proof.

So it would seem to me that anybody, regardless of their particular interpretation of scripture who believes that Jesus suffered under Pontias Pilate was crucified died and was buried, descended into hell and on the third day rose again is a Christian and has faith in Christ.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by deaddude
"You call it silly because you ignore Biblical text. NOTHING Biblical is silly"

oh please NewGuy did you sacrifice a lamb on pass over? No?

Textbook definition of Faith: belief in something without needing proof.

So it would seem to me that anybody, regardless of their particular interpretation of scripture who believes that Jesus suffered under Pontias Pilate was crucified died and was buried, descended into hell and on the third day rose again is a Christian and has faith in Christ.

Deaddude.

What the heck is your point?

Faith may not NEED proof, but it does not invalidate it.

Your last statement here has nothing to do with anything.

Satan believed in Christ and who He was. Is HE SAVED TOO?

It isn't acknowledgement in Christ, but ACCEPTANCE of Him as LORD AND SAVIOR OVER YOU.

If you want a Bible lesson, let me know. You obviously need it.

 

[Avatar4321]

As you have seem to ignore what i said but instead just pretended the points i mentioned werent in my last post i see no reaon to point out again what ive ill ready pointed out. Might want to reread the posts and figure out where you went wrong.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
As you have seem to ignore what i said but instead just pretended the points i mentioned werent in my last post i see no reaon to point out again what ive ill ready pointed out. Might want to reread the posts and figure out where you went wrong.

Since I adressed your points you can only be referring to someone else, or you didn't read my comments.

 

[leojoeyjoe]

fundamentalists are funny

 

[Merlin1047]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
its odd that with as many abortion clinics as there are in this country, I see more anti-abortion protesters calling for the death of the doctors than I do the pro-choice people calling for the death of the unborn.

Bullshit.

And you know it.

 

[Merlin1047]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
Thank you those of you that have offered support in regards to what I posted. Its appreciated very much!

The other part of what I wanted to touch on is the fact that many people consider those of us who are metaphysical to not be Christians - this is another thing that vexes me. I cannot understand this at all, and believe me, Ive tried.

Im not trying to lead anyone into a flame war; Im truly curious.....I would really appreciate some opinions regarding this.

Thanks!

I cannot begin to understand the trauma you must have endured.

I fail to see how anyone could be critical of the actions taken in your situation. There are some "Christians" who use dogma as a substitute for thinking. They believe that slavish devotion to ideology relieves them of the requirement to make decisions and thereby frees them from any consequences deriving from their actions. These people are fools, plain and simple. Basically, I believe in the principle of "right to life". My belief also encompasses the mother's right to life. I believe that, when faced with a situation such as your's, the mother's right to life is the prime consideration.

Part of being Christian is to be compassionate toward others. I'm always amazed at the number of zealous bible-thumpers who seem to feel that they know the will of God and are free to speak for Him. These people are more un-Christian than the most dedicated atheist. If any of them give you any flack, consider the source. Or, better yet, give them a dose of pepper spray.