Can a good Muslim be a good American?

[Bullypulpit]

Wow...After reading some of the posts here, there seems to be a couple of common threads...Xenophobic, anti-islamic diatribe...And name-calling where reason fails and the posters are unable to engage in any sort of rational argument as a result of their intellectual bankruptcy.

It was such xenophobic rhetoric in late 19th and early 20th century Germany that laid the foundations of the Holocaust. It was usually promulgated by those seeking to place the blame for their own failures, fears and weaknesses elsewhere instead of where they belonged...On the face they saw in the mirror every day.

 

[CSM]

...
It was such xenophobic rhetoric in late 19th and early 20th century Germany that laid the foundations of the Holocaust. It was usually promulgated by those seeking to place the blame for their own failures, fears and weaknesses elsewhere instead of where they belonged...On the face they saw in the mirror every day.

True enough. If the Muslims would get a grip and try to make things better for themselves instead of blaming everything on the West, things would get better in a hurry. Instead of spending all that oil money on weapons, they could spend it on education, infrastructure, health care and modernization.

Of course, if they did that, they would also have to assume responsibility for themselves and their place in the world.

 

[Abbey Normal]

True enough. If the Muslims would get a grip and try to make things better for themselves instead of blaming everything on the West, things would get better in a hurry. Instead of spending all that oil money on weapons, they could spend it on education, infrastructure, health care and modernization.

Of course, if they did that, they would also have to assume responsibility for themselves and their place in the world.

 

[Bullypulpit]

True enough. If the Muslims would get a grip and try to make things better for themselves instead of blaming everything on the West, things would get better in a hurry. Instead of spending all that oil money on weapons, they could spend it on education, infrastructure, health care and modernization.

Of course, if they did that, they would also have to assume responsibility for themselves and their place in the world.

As usual, don't address the issue, just take some part of the opposing view out of context and twist it to your own ends. Yawn. I expected better from you. I shall, in the future, keep my expectations to a minimum.

 

[007]

As usual, don't address the issue, just take some part of the opposing view out of context and twist it to your own ends. Yawn. I expected better from you. I shall, in the future, keep my expectations to a minimum.

You followed razor sharp reasoning and facts with an insult. It looks as though YOU are the one we'll expect less from, not CSM.

 

[CSM]

As usual, don't address the issue, just take some part of the opposing view out of context and twist it to your own ends. Yawn. I expected better from you. I shall, in the future, keep my expectations to a minimum.

Mornin, Bully!

You already presented the "blame the US first" side...I merely pointed out that it works both ways. Obviously, you don't like that.


As for your expectations....who really really cares what you expect? Yawn away but the boredom you want to express is probably more attributable to you boring perspective (and ad nauseum ranting about the current administration) than anything else. You just haven't realized it yet.

 

[JeffWartman]

The aggression in the Koran is also followed by much compassion, but you are selectively quoting the Koran out of context, just like Osama Bin Laden.
The Koran has violent passages (just like the bible) but those passages are often taken out of context (just like the bible)

For example:

(Taken from http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa090402a.htm)

Nevertheless, the Qur'an repeatedly urges forgiveness and restraint, and warns believers not to "transgress" or become "oppressors." Some examples:

If anyone slays a person
- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land -
it would be as if he slew all people.
And if anyone saves a life,
it would be as if he saved the life of all people.
Qur'an 5:32


Invite all to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching.
And argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious . . .
And if you punish,
let your punishment be proportional to the wrong that has been done to you.
But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course.
Be patient, for your patience is from God.
And do not grieve over them, or distress yourself because of their plots.
For God is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good.
Qur'an 16:125-128

Oh you who believe!
Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God,
even against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin,
and whether it be against rich or poor,
for God can best protect both.
Follow not the cravings of your hearts, lest you swerve,
and if you distort justice or decline to do justice,
verily God is well acquainted with all that you do.
Qur'an 4:135

The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree),
but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from God,
for God loves not those who do wrong.
But indeed, if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong done to them,
against such there is no cause of blame.
The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing
and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land,
defying right and justice,
for such there will be a penalty grievous (in the Hereafter).
But indeed, if any show patience and forgive,
that would truly be an affair of great resolution.
Qur'an 42:40-43

Goodness and evil are not equal.
Repel evil with what is better.
Then that person with whom there was hatred,
may become your intimate friend!
And no one will be granted such goodness
except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,
none but people of the greatest good fortune.
Qur'an 41:34-35

But what about those passages of the Qur'an that seem to promote wanton violence? One of the verses most often quoted (2:191) seems to command Muslims to "slay them wherever you find them." But who are "they?" Is it any non-Muslim or "infidel?" One merely needs to read the preceding verse to find the answer: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not the transgressors" (2:190). In subsequent verses, Muslims are called upon to stop fighting when the opposing party ceases its aggression.

All this shows that while there is violent passages in the Koran, there are also passages about compassion.

Now, if we look at the Christian Bible, we find the following pasages:
1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

Does this mean that Christianity is also a religion of terrorists? Overall, in the scope of history, more Christians have killed others in the name of religion than anyone else.

No, it doesn't. Because those statements are taken out of context and the Christian Crusaders were not truly following the word of God. It works the same way with Islam: terrorists are not following the true word of God, they are following a deranged terrorist who is brainwashing them. It's the terrorists fault, not Islam itself.

 

[Bullypulpit]

You followed razor sharp reasoning and facts with an insult. It looks as though YOU are the one we'll expect less from, not CSM.

I give as good as I get.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Mornin, Bully!

You already presented the "blame the US first" side...I merely pointed out that it works both ways. Obviously, you don't like that.


As for your expectations....who really really cares what you expect? Yawn away but the boredom you want to express is probably more attributable to you boring perspective (and ad nauseum ranting about the current administration) than anything else. You just haven't realized it yet.

Blame the US? Now, just where did I do that. I merely pointed out that,

<blockquote>No religious zealot can be an American patriot and a loyal citizen.</blockquote>

How this, or the following observations on the level of diatribe being expressed by the xenophobes here can be construed as blaming the US for anything is beyond me. And yes, Chimpy's administration is pretty nauseating...Isn't it.

 

[mattskramer]

The aggression in the Koran is also followed by much compassion, but you are selectively quoting the Koran out of context, just like Osama Bin Laden.
The Koran has violent passages (just like the bible) but those passages are often taken out of context (just like the bible)

For example:



All this shows that while there is violent passages in the Koran, there are also passages about compassion.

Now, if we look at the Christian Bible, we find the following pasages:
1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

Does this mean that Christianity is also a religion of terrorists? Overall, in the scope of history, more Christians have killed others in the name of religion than anyone else.

No, it doesn't. Because those statements are taken out of context and the Christian Crusaders were not truly following the word of God. It works the same way with Islam: terrorists are not following the true word of God, they are following a deranged terrorist who is brainwashing them. It's the terrorists fault, not Islam itself.

Outstanding! As I believe you can just about interpret a translation from any religious book, select particular passages and sentences, and twist it to fit your agenda. Then put us into an us-vs -them mentality. Other people do the same. Choose sides and pick up your guns but don’t put your feet in another person’s shoes. We are totally right in everything. They are totally wrong in everything. What a shame.

Look. Christians do good. Christians do bad. The Bible has good stuff. The Bible has bad stuff. Some Christians support the bad stuff and bad deeds. Some Christians condemn the bad stuff and bad deeds. Muslims do good. Muslims do bad. The Koran has good stuff. The Koran has bad stuff. Some Muslims support the bad stuff and bad deeds. Some Muslims condemn the bad stuff and the bad deeds. Can’t we just leave it at that?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Outstanding! As I believe you can just about interpret a translation from any religious book, select particular passages and sentences, and twist it to fit your agenda. Then put us into an us-vs -them mentality. Other people do the same. Choose sides and pick up your guns but don’t put your feet in another person’s shoes. We are totally right in everything. They are totally wrong in everything. What a shame.

Look. Christians do good. Christians do bad. The Bible has good stuff. The Bible has bad stuff. Some Christians support the bad stuff and bad deeds. Some Christians condemn the bad stuff and bad deeds. Muslims do good. Muslims do bad. The Koran has good stuff. The Koran has bad stuff. Some Muslims support the bad stuff and bad deeds. Some Muslims condemn the bad stuff and the bad deeds. Can’t we just leave it at that?

That would be nice, but when you're dealing with conflicting absolutist views there will always be conflict and often bloodshed and death as both sides are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

[007]

That would be nice, but when you're dealing with conflicting absolutist views there will always be conflict and often bloodshed and death as both sides are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Oh now wait just a minute... aren't you making a "sweeping generalization"?

 

[nt250]

Some Muslims condemn the bad stuff and the bad deeds. Can’t we just leave it at that?

At last count there were close to 1.2 billion Muslims in the world.

Find 5 that condemn terrorism against Israel.

I'll make it easier for you. Find 5 Muslims who condemned the Danish cartoons. You shouldn't have any problem doing that because when it comes to insults against Islam, Muslims have no problem speaking out. You will find scores of Muslims, world wide, who were outraged by the depiction of Muhammad in the Danish cartoons.

Now take any 5 of those outspoken Muslims and see if you can find one statement from any of them that condemns terrorism against Israel.

I won't hold my breath.

 

[dilloduck]

That would be nice, but when you're dealing with conflicting absolutist views there will always be conflict and often bloodshed and death as both sides are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Maybe the radical centrists could straighten everyone out

 

[007]

Maybe the radical centrists could straighten everyone out

Oh... you mean like bull pulpit?

And the absolutists that bull speaks of is either a democracy where people are free, like America, or islam, where for example women are beaten and treated like dogs. You see which one he has no problem defending.