I have to call out francoHFW who may be intellectually honest and open enough to admit what is wrong with this thinking behind ACA mandates. francoHFW on this thread: INSISTS that ACA mandates are justified because "something had to be done" http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16090003/ My response to francoHFW http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16090410/ I argue that laziness on the side of government officials (who can't figure out a better way that doesn't violate Constitutional principles and beliefs, including states rights, free choice, and due process of laws to prove citizens committed a violation before depriving us of liberty) DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A NATIONAL EMERGENCY IE "COMPELLING INTEREST" STATES HAVE RIGHTS, AUTHORITY AND ABILITY TO ADDRESS OBSCENE COSTS AND WASTE OF TAXES ON A FAILED MENTAL HEALTH AND PRISON SYSTEM THAT *CAN* BE REVAMPED TO REDIRECT TAXES SAVED TO PAY FOR HEALTH CARE FAILURE OF GOVT OFFICIALS TO RESOLVE THIS IN ADVANCE OF PASSING AND ENFORCING ACA DOES NOT CONSTITUTE JUSTIFICATION TO DEPRIVE CITIZENS OF LIBERTY, DUE TO GOVT INCOMPETENCE IN FIGURING OUT A CONSTITUTIONAL SOLUTION. I hereby challenge francoHFW to justify how failures of govt to come up with a Constitutionally agreed solution (such as dividing health care where different groups can pay for reforms in SEPARATE ways instead of imposing one way not everyone agrees to and doesn't represent the BELIEFS of all taxpayers, thus VIOLATING our Constitutional rights) constitutes a * national emergency that isn't the fault of GOVT OFFICIALS * compelling interest that isn't biased by GOVT OFFICIALS where the GOVT OFFICIALS who failed to solve these problems should be held responsible for the costs of their equally failed proposals that violated Constitutional rights, beliefs, and ethical standards in putting PARTISAN beliefs before Constitutional laws protecting equal beliefs and representation of ALL citizens who cannot be deprived of liberty without due process of law to show what crimes WE committed. I can show you where GOVT OFFICIALS like Obama, Congress and Courts imposed a bias in these ACA laws. francoHFW How are citizens who did not commit crimes and incur costs RESPONSIBLE for contracts and mandates that other Govt Officials believe in and imposed by their own political biases and ineptitude in not finding better solutions that all sides would agree to (such as separating funding and plans, so all beliefs are respected and protected from infringing on each other). Why should citizens be taxed for the incompetent plans and mandates forced on us by Govt Officials DESPITE OUR PROTESTS. How is THAT OUR FAULT THEY REFUSED TO protect and include equal beliefs? Are you saying that electing people to govt gives them the right to override our Constitutional freedoms by abusing Congress and Courts to pass and enforce such mandates we opposed based on our beliefs that are violated by them? Where in the Code of Ethics for Govt Service does it give govt officials the right to impose biased partisan beliefs to establish a national religion in violation of the Constitution: ethics-commission.net Because that's what you are promoting with this thinking: that the belief in right to health care SUPERCEDES beliefs in * states rights * no taxation without representation * consent of the governed * civil liberties not being deprived without due process of laws * no involuntary servitude except as a legal penalty for a convicted crime * freedom of choice in personal decisions that govt is not authorized to intervene in, regulate or penalize * neither establishing or prohibiting freedom of beliefs and religion ================= RULES for this Debate: A. either francoHFW has to convince me that there is NO OTHER WAY TO GET HEALTH CARE REFORM TO PASS Without the mandates. in other words, my proposal: B. to have EACH STATE revamp its own prison and mental health programs so that the money saved pays for health care for the general population, including * medical training and education programs with internships to serve in public health * expanding more facilities in every district to provide local services so there isn't a backlog * giving states and public INCENTIVE to cut costs of crimes in order to PAY FOR HEALTH CARE has to be either proven to me to be WORSE than ACA insurance mandates, or has to be proven to francoHFW to be a BETTER SOLUTION or C. We agree that people should have FREE CHOICE which is what I was ARGUING About the mandates: ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS MAKE THESE OPTIONAL AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSTITUTIONAL!!!! So my argument is based on giving taxpayers an EQUAL and FREE choice of funding either A (forced insurance mandates), B (forcing states to reform prisons and mental health programs to cover health care) or C (free choice of either track). While francoHFW keeps defending A only. So who is right? Someone arguing to leave ALL CHOICES OPEN. Or someone like francoHFW mandating one only and PUNISHING taxpayers for wanting to invest in the other choices IN ADDITION TO THE ONLY CHOICE THAT WAS GIVEN THROUGH ACA. francoHFW if you are right that mandating insurance is the only way for the ENTIRE NATION, then let's make a MILLION DOLLAR BET: If I can convince Obama, Cruz, Trump and Pelosi to leave it open to equal choice, and organize the Democrats per State and across the nation to set up the exchanges where these are tied with prison and immigration enrollment to manage resources better SO THAT HEALTH CARE COSTS ARE COVERED BY WHAT WE ALREADY PAY. Then YOU have to help raise 1,000,000 dollars toward the Democrats paying for this conversion. If I am wrong, and mandating insurance is "the only way to get something done" and reform will NOT get paid for by GIVING CITIZENS THE EQUAL CHOICE OF revamping the state prisons, mental health, public schools, housing and/or immigration systems so that money we are already paying can be saved to pay for universal care without charging taxpayers or depriving law abiding citizens of liberty and free choice. Then I will help Democrats raise 1,000,000 dollars to pay for this massive reform. Do you want to bet ONE MILLION DOLLARS there is a BETTER WAY to pay for sustainable health care than forcing insurance mandates on citizens who didn't commit crimes. let me know if you want to bet, or concede now and admit that people ought to have free choice in how to fix the problems!