Bull Ring Calling out francoHFW: Justifying ACA mandates "because something had to be done"

Discussion in 'The Bull Ring' started by emilynghiem, Dec 18, 2016.

  1. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    I have to call out francoHFW who may be intellectually honest and open enough
    to admit what is wrong with this thinking behind ACA mandates.

    francoHFW on this thread:

    INSISTS that ACA mandates are justified because
    "something had to be done"
    http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16090003/
    My response to francoHFW
    http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16090410/

    I argue that laziness on the side of government officials (who can't figure out a better
    way that doesn't violate Constitutional principles and beliefs, including states rights,
    free choice, and due process of laws to prove citizens committed a violation before
    depriving us of liberty) DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A NATIONAL EMERGENCY
    IE "COMPELLING INTEREST"

    STATES HAVE RIGHTS, AUTHORITY AND ABILITY TO ADDRESS
    OBSCENE COSTS AND WASTE OF TAXES ON A FAILED MENTAL
    HEALTH AND PRISON SYSTEM THAT *CAN* BE REVAMPED TO
    REDIRECT TAXES SAVED TO PAY FOR HEALTH CARE

    FAILURE OF GOVT OFFICIALS TO RESOLVE THIS IN ADVANCE
    OF PASSING AND ENFORCING ACA DOES NOT CONSTITUTE
    JUSTIFICATION TO DEPRIVE CITIZENS OF LIBERTY,
    DUE TO GOVT INCOMPETENCE IN FIGURING OUT A
    CONSTITUTIONAL SOLUTION.


    I hereby challenge francoHFW to justify how
    failures of govt to come up with a Constitutionally agreed solution
    (such as dividing health care where different groups can pay for reforms in SEPARATE ways
    instead of imposing one way not everyone agrees to
    and doesn't represent the BELIEFS of all taxpayers, thus VIOLATING our Constitutional rights)
    constitutes a
    * national emergency that isn't the fault of GOVT OFFICIALS
    * compelling interest that isn't biased by GOVT OFFICIALS
    where the GOVT OFFICIALS who failed to solve these problems
    should be held responsible for the costs of their equally failed proposals
    that violated Constitutional rights, beliefs, and ethical standards in
    putting PARTISAN beliefs before Constitutional laws protecting
    equal beliefs and representation of ALL citizens who cannot be
    deprived of liberty without due process of law to show what
    crimes WE committed. I can show you where GOVT OFFICIALS
    like Obama, Congress and Courts imposed a bias in these ACA laws.

    francoHFW
    How are citizens who did not commit crimes and incur costs
    RESPONSIBLE for contracts and mandates that other Govt Officials
    believe in and imposed by their own political biases and ineptitude
    in not finding better solutions that all sides would agree to (such as separating
    funding and plans, so all beliefs are respected and protected from infringing on each other).

    Why should citizens be taxed for the incompetent plans and mandates
    forced on us by Govt Officials DESPITE OUR PROTESTS.

    How is THAT OUR FAULT THEY REFUSED TO protect and include equal beliefs?

    Are you saying that electing people to govt gives them the
    right to override our Constitutional freedoms by abusing
    Congress and Courts to pass and enforce such mandates
    we opposed based on our beliefs that are violated by them?

    Where in the Code of Ethics for Govt Service does it give
    govt officials the right to impose biased partisan beliefs
    to establish a national religion in violation of the Constitution:
    ethics-commission.net
    Because that's what you are promoting with this thinking:
    that the belief in right to health care SUPERCEDES beliefs in
    * states rights
    * no taxation without representation
    * consent of the governed
    * civil liberties not being deprived without due process of laws
    * no involuntary servitude except as a legal penalty for a convicted crime
    * freedom of choice in personal decisions that govt is not authorized to intervene in, regulate or penalize
    * neither establishing or prohibiting freedom of beliefs and religion
    =================
    RULES for this Debate:

    A. either francoHFW has to convince me that there is NO OTHER WAY TO GET HEALTH CARE REFORM TO PASS Without the mandates.
    in other words, my proposal:
    B. to have EACH STATE revamp its own prison and mental health programs
    so that the money saved pays for health care for the general population, including
    * medical training and education programs with internships to serve in public health
    * expanding more facilities in every district to provide local services so there isn't a backlog
    * giving states and public INCENTIVE to cut costs of crimes in order to PAY FOR HEALTH CARE

    has to be either proven to me to be WORSE than ACA insurance mandates,
    or has to be proven to francoHFW to be a BETTER SOLUTION

    or
    C. We agree that people should have FREE CHOICE
    which is what I was ARGUING About the mandates:
    ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS MAKE THESE OPTIONAL
    AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSTITUTIONAL!!!!

    So my argument is based on giving taxpayers an EQUAL and FREE choice of
    funding either
    A (forced insurance mandates),
    B (forcing states to reform prisons and mental health programs to cover health care)
    or C (free choice of either track).

    While francoHFW keeps defending A only.

    So who is right?
    Someone arguing to leave ALL CHOICES OPEN.
    Or someone like francoHFW mandating one only and PUNISHING
    taxpayers for wanting to invest in the other choices IN ADDITION TO
    THE ONLY CHOICE THAT WAS GIVEN THROUGH ACA.

    francoHFW if you are right that mandating insurance is the only way
    for the ENTIRE NATION, then let's make a MILLION DOLLAR BET:

    If I can convince Obama, Cruz, Trump and Pelosi to leave it open to equal choice,
    and organize the Democrats per State and across the nation to set up the exchanges
    where these are tied with prison and immigration enrollment to manage resources
    better SO THAT HEALTH CARE COSTS ARE COVERED BY WHAT WE ALREADY PAY.

    Then YOU have to help raise 1,000,000 dollars toward the Democrats paying for this conversion.

    If I am wrong, and mandating insurance is "the only way to get something done"
    and reform will NOT get paid for by GIVING CITIZENS THE EQUAL CHOICE OF
    revamping the state prisons, mental health, public schools, housing and/or immigration systems so that money we are already paying can be saved to pay for universal care without
    charging taxpayers or depriving law abiding citizens of liberty and free choice.

    Then I will help Democrats raise 1,000,000 dollars to pay for this massive reform.

    Do you want to bet ONE MILLION DOLLARS
    there is a BETTER WAY to pay for sustainable health care
    than forcing insurance mandates on citizens who didn't commit crimes.

    let me know if you want to bet, or concede now and admit
    that people ought to have free choice in how to fix the problems!
     
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    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
  2. francoHFW
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    francoHFW Diamond Member

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    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
     
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  3. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    ^ is that taking the Fifth Amendment ? ^

    Are you really that chicken francoHFW
    I will make this easy on you.

    If you find someone to act as your proxy who
    can speak for you where you AGREE that
    you are wrong about the ACA mandates as the
    "only way to get something done"
    I'll let you off the hook.

    If you and other supporters of ACA keep taking this chicken way out,
    and not answering for the rights deprived of citizens by pushing this "belief in mandates"
    then you and the entire Democratic Party should be sued.

    Which side do you want to be on francoHFW
    the people who support SUING to get the Democratic Party leadership to
    PAYBACK TAXPAYERS the costs of ACA to invest in Singlepayer as restitution for passing unconstitutional mandates? or are you willing to take responsibility for BEING SUED,
    for conspiracy to violate equal civil rights of other citizens?

    Which side do you want to be on francoHFW?


    If anyone else wants to answer for you, and is willing to petition
    with me to Obama and Pelosi, Cruz and Trump, then on your
    behalf I'm willing to accept a substitute who isn't afraid to speak out.

    How much do you really believe your own arguments?
    If you're not willing to take any responsibility for them!

    so disappointing francoHFW was hoping to find a
    pro-ACA supporter willing to explain this to me, but haven't FOUND ONE!!!!
     
  4. SassyIrishLass
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    SassyIrishLass Diamond Member

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    He'll just call you a hater dupe and run away
     
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  5. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    At least that requires more thought and typing than hitting his nose on the Z key.
     
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  6. Yousaidwhat
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    Yousaidwhat Diamond Member

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    That was fast.
     
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  7. Harry Dresden
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    Harry Dresden Adamantium Member Supporting Member

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    Frankie!.....let me make you feel at home.....lol...

    [​IMG]
     
  8. francoHFW
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    francoHFW Diamond Member

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    We've had about 6"- just enough to make it beautiful for Xmas. How are the fires and mudslides? lol
     
  9. francoHFW
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    francoHFW Diamond Member

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    No more freeloaders so pre-existing can be covered.
     
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  10. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    A. francoHFW Can you PROVE that citizens were "freeloaders"
    BEFORE you abuse govt to deprive citizens of rights?
    do you apply this same logic to
    * depriving citizens of gun rights by treating them as criminals?
    * depriving citizens of voting rights by assuming they are guilty of fraud?
    * depriving citizens of "freedom of choice" in abortion because you don't want people abusing that freedom?

    The rightwing is willing to throw out free choice in cases of ABORTION; are you against that "loss of choice" but willing to throw out free choice in cases of HEALTH INSURANCE.

    What about Citizens who are COMMITTED to pay for their own costs, including the *FREE CHOICE to pay for insurance* BUT NOT FORCED by GOVT, because of not believing in federal govt MANDATING that citizens buy it.

    Are you REALLY going to punish citizens for having beliefs
    in BETTER WAYS to manage cost effective sustainable health care,
    EXAMPLES:

    People are not forced to fund
    * Doctors Without Borders
    * AmeriCares
    * The Nurturing Network
    * ST. JUDE'S CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL
    and look how effectively they work.


    Nobody is forced to pay for "freeloaders" under programs
    that work so well, people CHOOSE to contribute.

    Why are you PENALIZING the people who believe in funding
    cost-effective health care and medical programs VOLUNTARILY?


    What crime is being committed, that you believe it is worth it to
    PUNISH lawabiding citizens because of "freeloaders"
    WHICH FREELOADERS?

    AND WHY ARE YOU AND OBAMA TOO LAZY
    to figure out a way to go after THOSE freeloaders?
    Why is YOUR LAZINESS our problem?
    That we have to lose OUR freedom because of YOUR intellectual LAZINESS???


    B. Back to the prison system
    ARE YOU APPLYING THE SAME LOGIC TO FREELOADERS IN PRISONS??

    Can you explain why you wouldn't hold
    * wrongdoers responsible for paying THEIR OWN COSTS TO THE PUBLIC
    but you go after
    * LAWABIDING TAXPAYING CITIZENS AND PUNISH US WITH
    LOSS OF LIBERTY AND INCOME TO PAY FOR *** OTHER PEOPLE'S FREELOADING ***

    Why AREN'T you and Obama going after THAT source of
    BURDEN on taxpayers by FREELOADERS.

    Why not focus on a system that HOLDS "freeloaders" accountable for
    their costs INSTEAD OF GOING AFTER LAWABIDING CITIZENS
    WHO DIDN'T CAUSE THESE CRIMES AND CREATE THESE COSTS!

    Thanks francoHFW for trying to answer these questions.
    If you can, you are the only one who has even bothered to try.
    So Thank you!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016

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