CDZ California has every single gun control law...and the Fresno killer killed 3 people with a gun....

[JakeStarkey]

I am not going anywhere.

When the alt right rises up, there will be only summary tribunals when they are taken prisoner with fire arms.

no such thing as the alt right

Of course there is. And your denial reveals why you are not relevant to normal discussion.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The gunners seem to think that the UK with its anti-gun laws is more dangerous than America. Silly people.

and you people seem to think there is no violent crime in the UK

Skull thinks wrongly: gun violence is somewhere between 1:12 to 1:18 in comparison.

what about ALL violent crime

only someone naive to the point of mental retardation thinks violence can only be perpterated with a gun

Still much safer in the UK than here, and that you deny it, means you are not relevant to the discussion.

not really more assaults more rape but you of course don't think that there would be even less violent crime if law abiding citizens were allowed to carry firearms

 

[Skull Pilot]

I am not going anywhere.

When the alt right rises up, there will be only summary tribunals when they are taken prisoner with fire arms.

no such thing as the alt right

Of course there is. And your denial reveals why you are not relevant to normal discussion.

no it's just you and your 2 dimensional pigeonhole thinking.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We have laws against murder....yet we still have murder
We have laws against rape ....yet still have rapes

I guess the only logical solution is not to have laws

That is what the anarchist are really arguing for when they whine about getting government out of our lives.

If gun laws cannot stop every possible gun murder....there is no need for gun laws

Gun laws aren't stopping gun murder at all....the criminals who want to commit murder with guns, get the guns and use them.

We have the laws we need to deal with them....if you commit a crime with a gun you are arrested and locked up. The problem, as you know, is that the sentences for gun criminals are low...even repeat gun criminals...but that isn't your focus anyway. Anti gunners like you only care about normal, law abiding gun owners who don't use their guns for crime....since you know that when a criminal uses a gun and is caught...you get their gun.....the problem that drives you nuts...are all the normal gun owners, who do not commit crimes with guns who are out of your reach...so you have to make up process laws to put them in reach of your gun grabbing....

Gun laws stop murder all around the globe. But can't stop EVERY murder which you celebrate

no it doesn't

thank you for agreeing with rw.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am not going anywhere.

When the alt right rises up, there will be only summary tribunals when they are taken prisoner with fire arms.

no such thing as the alt right

Of course there is. And your denial reveals why you are not relevant to normal discussion.

no it's just you and your 2 dimensional pigeonhole thinking.

Says the man with the blinders and preconceived cognitive dissonance.

 

[Skull Pilot]

That is what the anarchist are really arguing for when they whine about getting government out of our lives.

If gun laws cannot stop every possible gun murder....there is no need for gun laws

Gun laws aren't stopping gun murder at all....the criminals who want to commit murder with guns, get the guns and use them.

We have the laws we need to deal with them....if you commit a crime with a gun you are arrested and locked up. The problem, as you know, is that the sentences for gun criminals are low...even repeat gun criminals...but that isn't your focus anyway. Anti gunners like you only care about normal, law abiding gun owners who don't use their guns for crime....since you know that when a criminal uses a gun and is caught...you get their gun.....the problem that drives you nuts...are all the normal gun owners, who do not commit crimes with guns who are out of your reach...so you have to make up process laws to put them in reach of your gun grabbing....

Gun laws stop murder all around the globe. But can't stop EVERY murder which you celebrate

no it doesn't

thank you for agreeing with rw.

gun laws do not stop murder in fact no law has ever stopped a murder

 

[Skull Pilot]

I am not going anywhere.

When the alt right rises up, there will be only summary tribunals when they are taken prisoner with fire arms.

no such thing as the alt right

Of course there is. And your denial reveals why you are not relevant to normal discussion.

no it's just you and your 2 dimensional pigeonhole thinking.

Says the man with the blinders and preconceived cognitive dissonance.

yeah the one who realized firearms in the hands of law abiding people are not the problem

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am not going anywhere.

When the alt right rises up, there will be only summary tribunals when they are taken prisoner with fire arms.

no such thing as the alt right

Of course there is. And your denial reveals why you are not relevant to normal discussion.

no it's just you and your 2 dimensional pigeonhole thinking.

Says the man with the blinders and preconceived cognitive dissonance.

yeah the one who realized firearms in the hands of law abiding people are not the problem

Suicides, homicides in the family, and so forth, yeah?

 

[bodecea]

I do not really get the point of this thread.

It asked a question based on the event in California, and now you can include the attack in France....


So......what is the next law that you guys want...that won't work....?

I don't want any laws on gun control. Why do you say "you guys" when talking to me?

 

[Skull Pilot]

no such thing as the alt right

Of course there is. And your denial reveals why you are not relevant to normal discussion.

no it's just you and your 2 dimensional pigeonhole thinking.

Says the man with the blinders and preconceived cognitive dissonance.

yeah the one who realized firearms in the hands of law abiding people are not the problem

Suicides, homicides in the family, and so forth, yeah?

suicide is a choice and a gun law won't stop a deranged person from killing his or her spouse but it will stop a woman from defending herself against her abusive husband but hey as long as there's no gun it's OK

 

[2aguy]

Please make sense instead of counter arguing and contradicting yourself, 2aguy.

One, because all murders are not stopped does not mean, two, we should not have laws against murders.

That is the argument you are making about gun laws. You don't make sense.

No...that is not the argument I am making....We have laws against committing crimes with guns...you want extra laws that do nothing except make it more difficult for law abiding people to own and carry guns.....

 

[2aguy]

That is what the anarchist are really arguing for when they whine about getting government out of our lives.

If gun laws cannot stop every possible gun murder....there is no need for gun laws

Gun laws aren't stopping gun murder at all....the criminals who want to commit murder with guns, get the guns and use them.

We have the laws we need to deal with them....if you commit a crime with a gun you are arrested and locked up. The problem, as you know, is that the sentences for gun criminals are low...even repeat gun criminals...but that isn't your focus anyway. Anti gunners like you only care about normal, law abiding gun owners who don't use their guns for crime....since you know that when a criminal uses a gun and is caught...you get their gun.....the problem that drives you nuts...are all the normal gun owners, who do not commit crimes with guns who are out of your reach...so you have to make up process laws to put them in reach of your gun grabbing....

Gun laws stop murder all around the globe. But can't stop EVERY murder which you celebrate

No...they don't....

How about trying to give us another law, on top of the ones California already has that would have stopped this murder....or how about for France? Since they have even more gun control than California has?

Gun Registration.....

The guy in California would not have to register his illegally owned guns from the ruling Haynes v. United states.....France....the convicted criminal could not buy, own or carry the fully automatic AK-47 since they are completely illegal in France, and on top of that he was a convicted criminal who served 15 out of 20 years for previously trying to kill police officers.

The only people who would be required to register guns...law abiding citizens who do not use their guns to commit crime, and if they do, can already be caught and arrested using current law enforcement techniques.

--------

Background checks.....

the guy in California could not pass a current, federal background check, or a background check on private sales...he still got the gun he used to commit murder....

France.....there are no background checks for fully automatic military rifles since they are completely banned...and the shooter was already a convicted felon so could not pass any background check at all...in fact, he was already on a government, terrorist watch list before the shooting and had been arrested the previous month for trying to buy illegal guns....

Normal gun owners already undergo background checks at licensed gun stores, making them necessary for private sales would increase the cost of doing them and may make it impossible to get them done, since not everyone lives near a gun store.....and since criminals do not go through background checks, and use straw buyers or steal the guns, the criminals who wanted a gun from a private seller, would simply use a straw buyer to buy the gun or steal the gun....

Magazine Limits....

The guy in California could not legally buy, own or carry the gun he used, so he could not have any magazine of any kind. The gun he acquired illegally, and used, was a revolver and does not use any magazine.

The guy in France, used an illegal, fully automatic rifle with a "high Capacity" magazine..which are both illegal in France and which he could not legally buy, own or carry since he was already a convicted, violent criminal on a government terrorist watch list....

Magazine limits....limit the number of bullets normal, law abiding gun owners can have in their guns...which the do not use to commit crimes or mass shootings....but may need for self defense....criminals and mass shooters...get those magazines easily. Also. by banning magazines...the anti gunners also ban the guns that use them....it is a back door gun ban.

So....at this point the 3 most popular new gun law fantasies of anti gunners are shown how they would not have stopped criminals or mass shooters from getting illegal guns...but they do make normal gun owners criminals if they fail to comply with these aribtrary laws....

30 year jail sentence....

The actual solution. in California, because of previous gun violence convictions, the shooter would have still been in jail, and his victims would be alive today.

in France....because of previous violent crimes and gun crimes the shooter would have been in jail and the victims would still be alive and unharmed.

Criminals who use guns to commit crimes would be punished, and law abiding gun owners would be left alone.

I will gladly take France's murder rate over our own

Than you need to move French citizens here and move democrat voters over there, because it isn't our gun control laws but our criminals that are pulling the triggers....

 

[2aguy]

Or the UK's.

Then move British citizens here, and move democrat voters over there. It is the culture of Britain that has kept their gun murder rate low...even when they had guns.....but, their violent crime rate is way above ours....

 

[2aguy]

The gunners seem to think that the UK with its anti-gun laws is more dangerous than America. Silly people.

and you people seem to think there is no violent crime in the UK

Skull thinks wrongly: gun violence is somewhere between 1:12 to 1:18 in comparison.

what about ALL violent crime

only someone naive to the point of mental retardation thinks violence can only be perpterated with a gun

Still much safer in the UK than here, and that you deny it, means you are not relevant to the discussion.

Actually, no it isn't. Britain is a lot more violent than the U.S., the only thing you don't have to worry about after you are raped, robbed, beaten or stabbed by a violent sociopath over there...they don't tend to actually murder you after they have beaten you to a pulp...or raped you.......but that is changing.....

Britain is far more violent than the U.S....

Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
The Met Police's figures showed there were 2,544 gun crime offences from April 2016 to April 2017 compared to 1,793 offences from 2015 until 2016.
Knife crime also increased by 24% with 12,074 recorded offences from 2016 to 2017.
============

Gun and knife crime soaring in London, official figures show

More worryingly, there was also a rise in the number of guns being fired on London’s streets, up from 239 cases in 2015/16 to 306 cases in the last financial year.

There was also a 20 per cent increase in the rate of knife attacks involving injuries to victims, up from 3,663 to 4,415 in 2016/17.

------

“We are concerned about the rise of gun crime and rise of knife crime offences committed by young people and the changing nature of the offenders. “

He said there was evidence that more young people are carrying knives for a variety of reasons including status, criminality and self-protection but said only around a quarter are affiliated with gangs.

He said police were focusing on reducing stabbings by taking weapons and dangerous offenders off the streets and trying to prevent and divert people from crime.
------

“With double-digit growth in gun and knife crime - and a youth homicide almost every fortnight - the crime challenge for London is real and serious and has serious impacts for London’s most disadvantaged communities.”
He added: “With 600 victims of serious youth violence each month, the Met needs a new plan to tackle the violence on our capital’s streets if they are to help impoverished communities.
==========

Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.

The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.

Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.

Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.

 

[JakeStarkey]

This is why 2aguy's numbers in UK mean nothing, because they is what you get when you compare them to the USA:

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5]21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[2aguy]

This is why 2aguy's numbers in UK mean nothing, because they is what you get when you compare them to the USA:

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5]21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia

And this is why your stats don't mean anything....

Britain banned guns in 1996, following the premise of anti gunners that more guns = more gun crime and more gun murder....

this was the result...their gun murder rate did not change....and now gun violence that was going up, is now up 42% in Britain...

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

The stats diagram...link to the image...

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

There gun ban did not lower violent crime, their gun ban did not lower gun murder....the whole point of the ban was to lower both....and it didn't.


Before the gun ban when British citizens could actually own guns...their gun murder rate was lower than the United States.....after the ban their gun murder rate did not change....showing that guns were not the issue in their murder rate.


In the United States.....the exact opposite was done...we increased both our gun ownership, and our carrying of guns for self defense.

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s to close to 400 million guns in private hands in 2016.

We went from 4.7 million Americans carrying guns for self defense in 1997 to over 15 million Americans carrying guns for self defense in 2016.

Unlike Britain...which saw spikes in gun crime and violent crime after their ban........

In the U.S.....

Our gun crime rate went down 75%.

Our gun murder rate went down 49%.

Our violent crime rate went down 72%....

So adding guns to our society did not increase our gun crime or gun violence and it did not increase our violent crime either.

The entire premise of the anti gun argument is wrong, it is not based in facts, truth or reality.

That the U.S. has more murder of every sort....our non gun murder rate is higher than Britain's total murder rate, shows that our criminal culture is different from the criminal culture of Britain.

British criminals engage in more rape, robbery, beatings and stabbings than U.S. criminals do.....but they simply don't cross the line and murder their victims.

American criminals.....commit murder more often.....their culture was created by single teenage girls raising young males without husbands, adult male role models to teach impulse control.

That is now happening in Britain...where before British Culture and history created a culture less prone to murder...but now they are catching up to the U.S. as recent violent crime stats from Britain show.....their welfare state has finally defeated the civilizing aspects of British culture, and their own single, teenage girls who are raising young males are now creating the same sociopaths we find in our democrat controlled voting districts.

 

[2aguy]

This is why 2aguy's numbers in UK mean nothing, because they is what you get when you compare them to the USA:

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5]21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia

And for the truth....from the FBI....as we went from 200 million guns in private hands, to close to 400 million....our gun murder rate went down...

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Uniform Crime Reports - 2000

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

gun murder rate 1997 -2000


1997..... 10,729
1998..... 9,257
1999..... 8,480
2000..... 8,493
2001..... 8,719
2002... 9,369
2003.... 9,638
2004..... 9,385
2005.... 10,158
2006.... 10,225
2007 10,129
2008-- 9,528
2009-- 9,199
2010- 8,874
2011-- 8,653
2012-- 8,897
2013-- 8,454
2014-- 8,312
2015--9,616

 

[2aguy]

This is why 2aguy's numbers in UK mean nothing, because they is what you get when you compare them to the USA:

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5]21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia

and Wikipedia is wrong....here are the actual stats from the CDC.....on nonfatal gun accidents....notice the difference in the numbers.....and how they went down as more Americans owned and carried guns for self defense.....

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997
CDC non fatal gun accident.....

1993... 104,390
1994... 89,744
1995... 84,322
1996... 69,649
1997... 64,207
2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

2015... 17,311

 

[2aguy]

This is why 2aguy's numbers in UK mean nothing, because they is what you get when you compare them to the USA:

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5]21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia

Jake can't even get the fatal gun accident numbers in perspective...since they have been going down as more Americans own and carry guns....

Leading Causes of Death | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC


2015...489http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

2014.....486

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

 

[2aguy]

This is why 2aguy's numbers in UK mean nothing, because they is what you get when you compare them to the USA:

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5]21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia

And as you fail to point out...because it makes your point even weaker.....Americans use their legally owned and carried guns to stop violent criminal attack 1,500,000 times a year, according to bill clinton and barak obama...and those are just two of the studies done on gun self defense.....

So of the gun murders in 2015..9,616 from the FBI table 8..........you have 1,500,000 times that guns are used to stop crime...not commit it....

1,500,000 to 9,616......


So given all the numbers available, or the last 20 years of research...guns are a net positive for law abiding Americans when it comes to self defense and surviving criminal attack....

The studies....

Self defense with a gun......40 years of actual research...first is the name of the group that conducted the research, then the year, then the number of defensive gun uses and finally wether the research contained police or military defensive gun uses....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....