Bush's invisible tax increase

[editec]

the choice about voting for McCain is pretty clear...he is a pandering Republican who will do everything in his power to keep the weathy wealthier by dumping taxes on the middle class, borrowing money from foreign nations, pissing away money on wars, and generally continuing the police state that this nation is moving toward.

What is NOT clear is what Obama is about, because we really only have a very limited view of what he has done.

But voting against your own best interests (if you're a working stiff, I mean) by voting for still another tax cut and borrow, spend money like a drunk sailor Republican, jsut stikes me as a dumbassed thing to do if you LOVE this nation and the people who live in it.

 

[Care4all]

Where are you getting the 3 trillion in SS surplus?

In 1983 Reagan with Greenspan's recomendation, RAISED our SS taxes to begin collecting MORE SS monies than was needed to pay the retirees, so that we would have the money to pay the Boomers when that group retires.

so the Boomers not only were paying for their parents SS, but paying for their own FUTURE SS...these excess monies, the SURPLUS monies of SS were added to our general revenues instead of being kept separate, were included in on our budget....and IOU's were given, essentially to the SS fund....

They were spent by congress to ballance their budget, hiding their excessive OVERSPENDING....

it started out very small...less than 10 -30 billion a year as SS surpluses for the most part for the first 10 to 15 years of over collecting on SS....the past 10 years these excess SS funds became very BIG....$225 Billion last year alone...

Congress has spent these SS monies on things that income taxes should have been paying for...and basically writen an IOU to SS...

When the Boomers retire, until 2045 we have enough money to pay for them with the SURPLUS SS monies....but this means that under our general budget, the IOU's have to be paid BACK to the SS funds that they used earlier....

so SS is sound till 2045, but it will take a great deal of congress's budget to pay back what they owe to SS because of their overspending and using this money since 1983...this is why it is unsound...not SS's fault at all, but the OVERSPENDING that congress did with the SS monies and growing their budgets to unsupportable levels....

about $200 billion a year during the Bush administration's reign has been USED by congress to fund the general budget.....that comes to the $1.5 TRILLION of SS surplus funds used just under this administration.

 

[sealybobo]

the choice about voting for McCain is pretty clear...he is a pandering Republican who will do everything in his power to keep the weathy wealthier by dumping taxes on the middle class, borrowing money from foreign nations, pissing away money on wars, and generally continuing the police state that this nation is moving toward.

What is NOT clear is what Obama is about, because we really only have a very limited view of what he has done.

But voting against your own best interests (if you're a working stiff, I mean) by voting for still another tax cut and borrow, spend money like a drunk sailor Republican, jsut stikes me as a dumbassed thing to do if you LOVE this nation and the people who live in it.

Just be ready for this curveball. Because the rich have made more and we are making less, these neo nuts like to make the argument that the rich are paying more taxes and we are actually paying less.

Which confirms what I've always said. "i'd rather pay $1000 more in taxes if it means a stong economy because then my home value goes up, my investments do better and companies pay more.

So whenever someone makes the argument that the rich pay more, know that they are spinning the facts. Most middle class gopers don't even realize this. they just repeat what rush told them. and don't think rush explains all this to them. he just makes them think the rich are being taken advantage of. poor rich. sob.

 

[chopcrazy]

When you are in debt, you start selling things you normally wouldn't sell. That's what the gop has done.

Same with the dubai port deal. Imagine selling port security to an arab country.

Yes, the gop can't afford to maintain our roads and spend all our money in iraq. they had to pick one. So now you and I will pay to drive thru indiana so haloburton can spend more in iraq.

Its sad when the gop can do anything they want and you choose to justify and defend thing that you know are not good for americans.

I know why they are selling off america cheap. been trying to stop it for 8 yrs now. even after the garage sale they still doubled the debt.

don't hope for change when you defend them when they fuck us. why should they stop when you defend them?

we voted them into power because the dems in the 80's weren't doing their job. now you need to vote the corrupt gop out. wake up.

I do not live in Indiana so I can't vote the governor out there. I thought you started discussing Indiana roads being sold to foreign interests. Is your response changing the direction of the topic from Indiana rodes to reasons to vote against the GOP?

Sadly, this election will be about voting for the lesser of two evils. As you said the dems did it in the 80s and the gop did in the 00s. There does not appear to be any reason this pattern won't stop.

 

[sealybobo]

I do not live in Indiana so I can't vote the governor out there. I thought you started discussing Indiana roads being sold to foreign interests. Is your response changing the direction of the topic from Indiana rodes to reasons to vote against the GOP?

Sadly, this election will be about voting for the lesser of two evils. As you said the dems did it in the 80s and the gop did in the 00s. There does not appear to be any reason this pattern won't stop.

Since we both agree both parties will overspend, lets talk about why. The anwer is the federal reserve and irs. Three very rich and powerful men took over our country in 1913 when the Federal Reserve Act was started. JP morgan, carnege & rockafellor. Three ruthless men. They took over the treasury, our banks, basically from that point on, they own us. The dollar is not backed by gold anymore. The fed loves the national debt because we only pay the interest on the national debt. bush doubled the debt. the more we owe, the more they own us. And both parties know this is true. But anyone who speaks out gets blacklisted. just look at dr ron paul. it is unconstitutional to tax a mans income. only direct taxes. Income tax was to help pay for WW1 & 2 and the same thing the rich did then they are doing now. even similar how we stole hitlers gold and today we stole sadams oil. same difference. oil worth just as much.

I could go on all day, but until more of you wake up to the fact ppl own the federal reserve. its a very corupt branch. irs can do anything they want.

oh yea, same rich guys started standard oil. they own al of us.

at least the dems are the party that makes it better for the masses instead of every man for himself

 

[jreeves]

No it isn't.

Social security has more money than it currently needs because the baby boomer generation more than funded it.

It's not our fault of the Republicans pissed it all away.

I think I said entitlement spending.....
Which would include Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security...

In case you don't know Medicare is in much worse shape than Social Security. Republicans haven't robbed Medicare, its a failed social program. For one, there is going to be more people drawing Medicare than is paying in...(now it doesn't take a genius to figure it out, it's going to go bankrupt...)
Also, rising healthcare costs.

Secondly, both Republicans and Democrats have stolen from the Social Security trust fund....

Medicaid will fail also because of the same reasons noted for Medicare, specifically rising healthcare costs.

 

[jreeves]

Republicans

They created the single program that will bankrupt us as a country, their Medicare Pill Bill...

SS could have been tweeked and not broken us, IF CONGRESS had not already used over 3 TRILLION in SS surplus funds and counting.... to use towards the military, and other OVER SPENDING imo!

This administration and congress has basically stolen about HALF, nearly 1.5 TRILLION in just the 8 year term of Bush, of social security SURPLUSSES.....

care

Now Care, it wasn't only Republicans that voted for the Pill Bill....A lot of Democrats were right there voting yes too...

 

[Care4all]

Now Care, it wasn't only Republicans that voted for the Pill Bill....A lot of Democrats were right there voting yes too...

NO THEY WERE NOT, not in the house of reps....all Dems, with the exception of less than a handful voted NO for this republican Pill Bill...

the Dems were not even allowed in to the conference writing the Bill, but the PHARMA lobbyists were, and they actually WROTE the Bill...

and when it went to the floor for a vote, the Democrats actually won, and the bill was defeated after the LEGAL 15 MINUTE VOTE, but the Republicans kept the vote opened for 3 hours, until they BRIBED and twisted the arms of the republicans that voted against it to change their vote.

THIS IS ALL DOCUMENTED and I WATCHED IT and stayed up until 3 am when they closed the vote and said the Republicans won and got the Bill passed by 3 votes....from all the Bribing....yes BRIBING, and a Republican Congressman voting no turned them in for it too.....but nothing was done, a few slap on the hands, that's it...SICKENING and so much for Democracy....

It was the BIGGEST INJUSTICE that i have ever witnessed Congress cheat and do....

The republican heading the conference on this PHARMA GIVE AWAY, left congress just a few months afterwards to go and work for PHARMA with a multi million dollar job...yes, this is the TRUTH....

Disgusting, just disgusting...jreeves...i nearly threw up, when it was all said and done....

Remember, it is the HOuse of representatives that represents us, the people.

The senate and senators represent the State and State governments.

Care

 

[Chris]

NO THEY WERE NOT, not in the house of reps....all Dems, with the exception of less than a handful voted NO for this republican Pill Bill...

the Dems were not even allowed in to the conference writing the Bill, but the PHARMA lobbyists were, and they actually WROTE the Bill...

and when it went to the floor for a vote, the Democrats actually won, and the bill was defeated after the LEGAL 15 MINUTE VOTE, but the Republicans kept the vote opened for 3 hours, until they BRIBED and twisted the arms of the republicans that voted against it to change their vote.

THIS IS ALL DOCUMENTED and I WATCHED IT and stayed up until 3 am when they closed the vote and said the Republicans won and got the Bill passed by 3 votes....from all the Bribing....yes BRIBING, and a Republican Congressman voting no turned them in for it too.....but nothing was done, a few slap on the hands, that's it...SICKENING and so much for Democracy....

It was the BIGGEST INJUSTICE that i have ever witnessed Congress cheat and do....

The republican heading the conference on this PHARMA GIVE AWAY, left congress just a few months afterwards to go and work for PHARMA with a multi million dollar job...yes, this is the TRUTH....

Disgusting, just disgusting...jreeves...i nearly threw up, when it was all said and done....

Remember, it is the HOuse of representatives that represents us, the people.

The senate and senators represent the State and State governments.

Care

Outstanding post.

You are a true patriot.

 

[jreeves]

NO THEY WERE NOT, not in the house of reps....all Dems, with the exception of less than a handful voted NO for this republican Pill Bill...

the Dems were not even allowed in to the conference writing the Bill, but the PHARMA lobbyists were, and they actually WROTE the Bill...

and when it went to the floor for a vote, the Democrats actually won, and the bill was defeated after the LEGAL 15 MINUTE VOTE, but the Republicans kept the vote opened for 3 hours, until they BRIBED and twisted the arms of the republicans that voted against it to change their vote.

THIS IS ALL DOCUMENTED and I WATCHED IT and stayed up until 3 am when they closed the vote and said the Republicans won and got the Bill passed by 3 votes....from all the Bribing....yes BRIBING, and a Republican Congressman voting no turned them in for it too.....but nothing was done, a few slap on the hands, that's it...SICKENING and so much for Democracy....

It was the BIGGEST INJUSTICE that i have ever witnessed Congress cheat and do....

The republican heading the conference on this PHARMA GIVE AWAY, left congress just a few months afterwards to go and work for PHARMA with a multi million dollar job...yes, this is the TRUTH....

Disgusting, just disgusting...jreeves...i nearly threw up, when it was all said and done....

Remember, it is the HOuse of representatives that represents us, the people.

The senate and senators represent the State and State governments.Care

If we are talking about the plan and which party voted for it, it was both Republicans and Democrats...Do I need to show the actual votes in the US Senate? Besides that fact, democrats controled the Senate....

I think the bill was incredibly stupid, but both Dems and Reps were incredibly stupid on this one.

 

[Chris]

If we are talking about the plan and which party voted for it, it was both Republicans and Democrats...Do I need to show the actual votes in the US Senate? Besides that fact, democrats controled the Senate....

I think the bill was incredibly stupid, but both Dems and Reps were incredibly stupid on this one.

Yes, show a link to the actual votes.

 

[sealybobo]

NO THEY WERE NOT, not in the house of reps....all Dems, with the exception of less than a handful voted NO for this republican Pill Bill...

the Dems were not even allowed in to the conference writing the Bill, but the PHARMA lobbyists were, and they actually WROTE the Bill...

and when it went to the floor for a vote, the Democrats actually won, and the bill was defeated after the LEGAL 15 MINUTE VOTE, but the Republicans kept the vote opened for 3 hours, until they BRIBED and twisted the arms of the republicans that voted against it to change their vote.

THIS IS ALL DOCUMENTED and I WATCHED IT and stayed up until 3 am when they closed the vote and said the Republicans won and got the Bill passed by 3 votes....from all the Bribing....yes BRIBING, and a Republican Congressman voting no turned them in for it too.....but nothing was done, a few slap on the hands, that's it...SICKENING and so much for Democracy....

It was the BIGGEST INJUSTICE that i have ever witnessed Congress cheat and do....

The republican heading the conference on this PHARMA GIVE AWAY, left congress just a few months afterwards to go and work for PHARMA with a multi million dollar job...yes, this is the TRUTH....

Disgusting, just disgusting...jreeves...i nearly threw up, when it was all said and done....

Remember, it is the HOuse of representatives that represents us, the people.

The senate and senators represent the State and State governments.

Care

Imagine if you were watching cspan 1913 and you saw the republicans turn over our gold to jp morgan, rockafellor and carnege, the three richest men who were RUTHLESS. It wouldn't make sense to you. In return, they promised to manage our finances. Only this happened over a christmas break. no one to argue against. and not enough states were there to ratify the vote. but apparently all the politicians were told to shut up and forget what happened, and that's what happened. sort of like telecom immunity. and politicians aren't stupid. they can't do anything about it. look at how they shut ron paul out when he spoke up.

so you saw how it works. I wish more of these people knew what was really going on, they sure wouldn't be voting for mccain.

i'm really not as pro democrat as some people think. i'm just 100 percent anti gop. I, I mean we, know what they did. They need to retire and maybe some new honest republicans will take their place. I just worry the delays, roves already have their hooks into them.

then if in 2 yrs the dems suck, I may consider a young republican with a good conservative resume.
mccain is the establishment.

 

[dilloduck]

Imagine if you were watching cspan 1913 and you saw the republicans turn over our gold to jp morgan, rockafellor and carnege, the three richest men who were RUTHLESS. It wouldn't make sense to you. In return, they promised to manage our finances. Only this happened over a christmas break. no one to argue against. and not enough states were there to ratify the vote. but apparently all the politicians were told to shut up and forget what happened, and that's what happened. sort of like telecom immunity. and politicians aren't stupid. they can't do anything about it. look at how they shut ron paul out when he spoke up.

so you saw how it works. I wish more of these people knew what was really going on, they sure wouldn't be voting for mccain.

i'm really not as pro democrat as some people think. i'm just 100 percent anti gop. I, I mean we, know what they did. They need to retire and maybe some new honest republicans will take their place. I just worry the delays, roves already have their hooks into them.

then if in 2 yrs the dems suck, I may consider a young republican with a good conservative resume.
mccain is the establishment.

as if Obama is gonig to do away with the FED. You know better than that !

 

[sealybobo]

as if Obama is gonig to do away with the FED. You know better than that !

I know, but baby steps. If we vote in change, some is better than none. It isn't just obama. A bunch of new democrats are in office. jim webb for one. they seem more honest than the gop old timers like boehner. the party elders on both sides need to go. We got rid of Hillary, and she certainly represented the establishment, so hopefully mccain goes too.

But if we are ever going to fix what is wrong, we have to look at the system and fix what is wrong. abusive pork spending, taking from social security, lobbyists owning our politicians, selling the country to foreign interest, not manufacturing anything anymore, etc.

I can't remember 1/100th of the shit the gop did from 2000 to 06 when they had total control. They totally fucked this country up.

And I don't undstand people think me saying this is unpatriotic or socialist. rediculous.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Carnegie had nothing to do with the creation of the Federal Reserve. It was Rockefeller, Morgan, and Rothschild.

 

[jreeves]

Yes, show a link to the actual votes.

Project Vote Smart - Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit bill Member Vote List

Quite a bit of the Democrats in the Senate voted for it...without them the bill would have failed...

 

[jreeves]

Imagine if you were watching cspan 1913 and you saw the republicans turn over our gold to jp morgan, rockafellor and carnege, the three richest men who were RUTHLESS. It wouldn't make sense to you. In return, they promised to manage our finances. Only this happened over a christmas break. no one to argue against. and not enough states were there to ratify the vote. but apparently all the politicians were told to shut up and forget what happened, and that's what happened. sort of like telecom immunity. and politicians aren't stupid. they can't do anything about it. look at how they shut ron paul out when he spoke up.

so you saw how it works. I wish more of these people knew what was really going on, they sure wouldn't be voting for mccain.

i'm really not as pro democrat as some people think. i'm just 100 percent anti gop. I, I mean we, know what they did. They need to retire and maybe some new honest republicans will take their place. I just worry the delays, roves already have their hooks into them.

then if in 2 yrs the dems suck, I may consider a young republican with a good conservative resume.
mccain is the establishment.

Oh you mean the FISA bill which Senator Obama voted for....oh ok...

 

[jreeves]

I know, but baby steps. If we vote in change, some is better than none. It isn't just obama. A bunch of new democrats are in office. jim webb for one. they seem more honest than the gop old timers like boehner. the party elders on both sides need to go. We got rid of Hillary, and she certainly represented the establishment, so hopefully mccain goes too.

But if we are ever going to fix what is wrong, we have to look at the system and fix what is wrong. abusive pork spending, taking from social security, lobbyists owning our politicians, selling the country to foreign interest, not manufacturing anything anymore, etc.

I can't remember 1/100th of the shit the gop did from 2000 to 06 when they had total control. They totally fucked this country up.And I don't undstand people think me saying this is unpatriotic or socialist. rediculous.

I thought you couldn't remember 1/100th what they did how do you know that fucked up the country?

 

[Care4all]

If we are talking about the plan and which party voted for it, it was both Republicans and Democrats...Do I need to show the actual votes in the US Senate? Besides that fact, democrats controled the Senate....

I think the bill was incredibly stupid, but both Dems and Reps were incredibly stupid on this one.

jr, please read this article....it is long and complicated, but towards the last few chapters of it, it goes in to the Medicare Pill Bill and how it related to the Lobbyists of phrma....

Poison Pill - Barbara T. Dreyfuss