Bush Warns Russia to Honor Cease-Fire Agreement

[Tech_Esq]

I shouldn't be suspicious of an Obama supporter? What planet do you live on?

Yes, he does sound loopy. And since they attacked the O.S. first, I can't rule out that he isn't playing a game himself.

Sorry, I thought you might be a fan. Well, regardless, he is on the left and an ambassador for Clinton.

I heard a very interesting presentation by several scholars from the AEI on the way home tonight. They were saying that the Georgia was baited into attacking because they were taking fire from S.O. and the Russian "peace-keepers" said they couldn't control it anymore. Within 15 minutes the Russians claimed the Georgians were committing genocide. This is an aspect that has yet to play out. You can expect the Russians to demand that the president of Georgia be tried for war crimes with lots of photos of dead bodies flooding the press in the next week or so.

However, they have banned the press from the area. The press for their part are largely just accepting the Russian's propaganda at face value. The AEI folks took them to task for their laziness and called them out on it.

 

[Ravi]

Sorry, I thought you might be a fan. Well, regardless, he is on the left and an ambassador for Clinton.

I heard a very interesting presentation by several scholars from the AEI on the way home tonight. They were saying that the Georgia was baited into attacking because they were taking fire from S.O. and the Russian "peace-keepers" said they couldn't control it anymore. Within 15 minutes the Russians claimed the Georgians were committing genocide. This is an aspect that has yet to play out. You can expect the Russians to demand that the president of Georgia be tried for war crimes with lots of photos of dead bodies flooding the press in the next week or so.

However, they have banned the press from the area. The press for their part are largely just accepting the Russian's propaganda at face value. The AEI folks took them to task for their laziness and called them out on it.

Just so you know, I don't feel obligated to believe any politician or politician's current or former mouthpiece.

And if you are claiming the "liberal" press is taking Russia's side, I guess you missed where PBS was claiming Russians were looting and raping in Georgia indiscriminately.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I don't know much about Georgia, so please correct me where I am mistaken on the facts.

My understanding is that Georgia militarily reclaimed portions of South Ossetia, which is a breakaway province composed mostly of ethnic Russians seeking to secede. Russia intervened to help the ethnic Russians in South Ossetia.

Aside from the past history of genocide, which I don't deny is a huge factor, isn't this similar to what is happening in Kosovo, where a Serbian government wishes to restore its territorial integrity by reclaiming the polity? How can we justify our actions in Kosovo, where we recognize and support a breakaway province composed of a seperate ethnic group (against Russia and Serbia's wishes), while at the same time criticizing Russia (too strongly) for acting in their sphere of influence to protect a breakaway province of a separate ethnic group?

I find this situation to be a bit muddled from a moral point of view.

The South Ossetians are not ethnically Russian. In the first case, they are ethnically diverse some Georgian and mostly ethnic Alans. The Alans have their own language neither Russian nor Georgian.

The distinction in what has happened with Kosovo is that Putin has been subverting Georgian rule for years with ever increasing pressure on Georgia. They have cut off trade, food and electricity to Georgia. They have attempted to influence Georgian elections in May. They have "annexed" South Ossetia under Russian law, granted S.O. people Russian citizenship and services. Finally when all else fail they started firing on the Georgians to force their hand.

Yes the the set up looks like Kosovo because Kosovo was a stick in Russia's eye. They wanted to give it back to the West just like they got it so they engineered it to look very similar to Kosovo.

 

[Gunny]

Does that same broken record keep running in your head all the time?

Is there doubt?

 

[Tech_Esq]

hmmmn .... I still think we need to keep our nose out of it

The US has a way of saying ..... "Oppps! A little to late."



Washingtonpost.com: Live Online

Maybe so. But, the folks from the AEI that were talking about it said that Ukraine will definitely be the next target of Russia. It wasn't even a question for them. The seeds have already been laid, it's just a matter of time. Are we willing to allow Russia to crush two or more democratic states?

What message will they take from that? Will that good for us or Europe?

 

[Tech_Esq]

Just so you know, I don't feel obligated to believe any politician or politician's current or former mouthpiece.

And if you are claiming the "liberal" press is taking Russia's side, I guess you missed where PBS was claiming Russians were looting and raping in Georgia indiscriminately.

I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, journalists have gotten lazy. In the opinion of the AEI folks, they believe the journalists have fallen down on the job.

 

[midcan5]

I haven't accused either side of anything--WTF are you talking about?

Not you, Bush,

 

[Ravi]

I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, journalists have gotten lazy. In the opinion of the AEI folks, they believe the journalists have fallen down on the job.

That's nice. You still trust the neo-cons, I see. Well, they are the ones that cheerleaded us into Iraq and now it seems they want to cheerlead us into a war with Russia.

I can't even fathom what they mean by journalists have gotten lazy.

 

[dilloduck]

Just so you know, I don't feel obligated to believe any politician or politician's current or former mouthpiece.

And if you are claiming the "liberal" press is taking Russia's side, I guess you missed where PBS was claiming Russians were looting and raping in Georgia indiscriminately.

At least you can admit how liberal PBS is .

 

[Ravi]

At least you can admit how liberal PBS is .

If by liberal you mean rational, absolutely.

 

[dilloduck]

If by liberal you mean rational, absolutely.

rational liberals ????

 

[Tech_Esq]

That's nice. You still trust the neo-cons, I see. Well, they are the ones that cheerleaded us into Iraq and now it seems they want to cheerlead us into a war with Russia.

I can't even fathom what they mean by journalists have gotten lazy.

What neo-cons are you talking about? Are you saying the American Enterprise Institute is a Neo-Con thinktank? If so, I think you are mistaken. From my 20 year observation of the AEI, I think it is a slightly right leaning organization, but they have plenty of members who are on the left. This is no Heritage Foundation. They may have some Neo-cons, I'm not saying no, but clearly the people speaking yesterday were far more pragmatic than any Neo-Con I've heard.

What do they mean by lazy journalism? Really? You haven't heard that 2008 was the year journalism died? Journalists are spending far too much time just accepting what they are told by people who have their own agendas than going out to original sources and finding out the truth of the situation. I'm not even sure if many would know objective truth if it slapped them in the face and knocked them down. I'm not even saying liberal or conservative just plain old what happened with out spin, filters, lenses and all the other BS.

 

[Ravi]

From wikipedia:

AEI has emerged as one of the leading architects of the second Bush administration's public policy.[2] More than twenty AEI alumni and current visiting scholars and fellows have served either in a Bush administration policy post or on one of the government's many panels and commissions.[3] Former United States Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz is a visiting scholar, and Lynne Cheney, wife of Vice President Dick Cheney and former chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities, is a senior fellow.[4]

Yep, I'd say their policies are questionable and heavily neo-con. And no, people have been making the same statements about journalists since the beginning of time. What in particular are you claiming they did not do?

 

[Tech_Esq]

From wikipedia:



Yep, I'd say their policies are questionable and heavily neo-con. And no, people have been making the same statements about journalists since the beginning of time. What in particular are you claiming they did not do?

I'd say that's not different than what I said they were. The AEI, like many think tanks around here have a revolving door. People are in and out of Government and in and out of think tanks and law firms. I said they had neo-cons but these were not neo-cons I heard yesterday and the AEI does not have a "policy" that they pursue. Otherwise scholars on the left would not be in the same organization Norm Ornstein is there for Christ's sake.

Specifically, news organizations reported yesterday that the Russians were leaving Gori. One reporter received this news flash on his Blackberry as he was standing next to a Russian T-72 tank in Gori. Now, how did the journalist who wrote that story get it? By going to Gori, seeing the Russian tanks and lying? Probably not. They probably got it because the were report what someone said was happening. Someone with an agenda that says if reports say Russians are leaving Gori when they aren't, it's better for us.

Hmmmm....wonder who that could be?

 

[sealybobo]

President Bush today warned Russia to honor a cease-fire agreement in the conflict with Georgia, saying that Moscow's actions "raise serious questions about its intentions."

In a brief statement in the Rose Garden at the White House, Bush said he is sending Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Paris for ongoing negotiations and then to Tbilisi to show support for the Georgian people.

Bush said the administration is concerned about reports that Russian troops continue to move within Georgia, blocking major highways and ports.

"The United States stands with the democratically elected government of Georgia and insists that the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia be respected," Bush said, adding later: "Russia must keep its word and act to end this crisis."

Bush Warns Russia to Honor Cease-Fire Agreement - washingtonpost.com

Or else what?

Just what did the U.S. promise Georgia? The Washington Post: "The muscular rhetoric in the United States followed complaints from Georgia's president, Mikheil Saakashvili, that the administration was not doing enough to help the small country. Saakashvili's government contributed troops to Iraq and earned support from Bush for membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, a proposal Russia strongly opposes.”

“Saakashvili also caused an uproar when he said that Bush's pledge of humanitarian aid meant the U.S. military would take control of ‘Georgian ports and airports.’ The Pentagon swiftly contradicted his statement, and Saakashvili did not repeat it during a subsequent television appearance. But the administration appeared to be sending mixed signals with its aid shipments, pointedly using military planes and ships and warning Russia not to block sea, air or land transport routes, while insisting it had no plans to intervene militarily."

McCain writes a Wall Street Journal op-ed -- entitled “We Are All Georgians” -- in which he advocates sending some US troops to the region. "We should work toward the establishment of an independent, international peacekeeping force in the separatist regions, and stand ready to help our Georgian partners put their country back together.

 

[Ravi]

I'd say that's not different than what I said they were. The AEI, like many think tanks around here have a revolving door. People are in and out of Government and in and out of think tanks and law firms. I said they had neo-cons but these were not neo-cons I heard yesterday and the AEI does not have a "policy" that they pursue. Otherwise scholars on the left would not be in the same organization Norm Ornstein is there for Christ's sake.

Specifically, news organizations reported yesterday that the Russians were leaving Gori. One reporter received this news flash on his Blackberry as he was standing next to a Russian T-72 tank in Gori. Now, how did the journalist who wrote that story get it? By going to Gori, seeing the Russian tanks and lying? Probably not. They probably got it because the were report what someone said was happening. Someone with an agenda that says if reports say Russians are leaving Gori when they aren't, it's better for us.

Hmmmm....wonder who that could be?

They don't have a policy? Then why do they exist? That's a pretty naive statement there, Techie.

And yes, reporters report. That is their job. Often the get things wrong. And it has always been this way. But usually they correct their mistakes and in the end something akin to the truth comes out.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with the blackberry, could you provide a link?

 

[Tech_Esq]

They don't have a policy? Then why do they exist? That's a pretty naive statement there, Techie.

And yes, reporters report. That is their job. Often the get things wrong. And it has always been this way. But usually they correct their mistakes and in the end something akin to the truth comes out.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with the blackberry, could you provide a link?

The AEI, the Rand Corp., The Brookings Institution, The Heritage Foundation etc. do not exist to push "a policy." They employ scholars of various types who write scholarly articles on their particular area of expertise. These are often referred to as "policy alternatives." The AEI may have 6 people all developing policy alternatives across the political spectrum in the same policy area. One of them may be picked up by the government and pursued. Or, one, or more, may be picked up by members of Congress and used as a basis or in support of their legislative initiatives. Come'on this is poli sci 102 stuff.

Your defense of journalists and journalism is naive and unwarranted by the facts I'm sorry to say.

The Blackberry report was on TV so I'm not sure if I can provide a link for you. But, I'll see if i can find it.