Bush Says Disgusted by Abuse of Iraqis, Vows to Act

[OCA]

Originally posted by st8_o_mind
US forces are are using the same methonds, even the same prison made famous during the Saddam era for torture. US has appointed former Republican Guard senior military officers to head the new Iraqi army and civilian defense force (read internal security).

Perhaps you're right Jim, but from the Iraqi perspective it looks more and more like they have traded a repressive dictatorship for a repressive occupation army.

Two perspectives from the fallout were reported in today's Washington Post (sorry, no link, I have the hard copy).

"The chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff acknowledged Sunday that allegations that Iraqi prisoners were abused at a detention facility run by the Army have set back efforts to cultivate a positive image for the U.S. military in the region."

I'd say the general has a knack for understatement.

"The release of these pictures may be the point at which the United States lost Iraq" -- Juan Cole, professor of modern Middle Eastern history at the University of Michigan.

The latter may be an overstatement. The impact of the revelations that the good guys have been torturing prisoners is probably somewhere in the middle. This issue goes beyond prosecution of a "few bad apples."

I don't think Iraq is hopeless. While I oppesed the invasion before it happened, not that we are there, I don't think the US can afford to "cut and run." As Colin Powell said -- We own it.

Now that we are there, these constant blunders by the occupation authority and the Bush Administration will end up making the transition in Iraq a more lengthy process, a more expensive process for the US taxpayers, and unfortunately, will increase the numbers of Americans killed in the process.

They were not abused, they were not tortured. You are spreading propoganda without any fact. Under military law will they be punished for what they done? Yes. Are most Americans in some way laughing their asses off getting a kick out of some raghead having simulated butt sex with his stinky friend? Absolutely. We will not leave Iraq until the job is done no matter how much the enemy friendly subversives here would like us to. ST8 your right to vote should be revoked.

Show me some links with proof that the Army is using that prison for torture, would ya? Somehow I just don't believe you.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by spillmind
don't be ridiculous! why would i even trade posts with people i thought were 'stupid'? (doubt you'll be answering that one) i didn't realize you were joining the esteemed list of those who assume too much....?

Here was your original quote: "actually, it's more out of disbelief that so many people that can figure out AOL and the internet, let alone a chat room STILL SUPPORT BUSH." To me, that sounds like you are saying that you can't believe that anyone with brains enough to follow a chat room (or message board) would be smart enough to support Bush.

sorry, i misspoke. i meant the people that went public with these photos, and this story.... isn't this something the US wants to keep under wraps? they do a pretty good job of not publicizing things that hurt our 'cause' in iraq. [/B]

I don't think anyone is being called a traitor by anyone else. I'm sure that everyone would have been happier if this had been discovered and handled in military channels. That would not have absolved any guilt, but would be a lot easier to handle.

 

[spillmind]

ST8 your right to vote should be revoked.

now *that* is truly american sheesh. from your generalizations to insults, i'm GLAD i'm not of the (apparent) bushie subscription that you are!

i understand the NEED for a third party, and the american people's need for a fresh, NON-LOBBIED voice. i'm not sure what party affiliation that makes me...?

To me, that sounds like you are saying that you can't believe that anyone with brains enough to follow a chat room (or message board) would be smart enough to support Bush.

yeah, you got me there. i said i wasn't perfect. and i can be a jerk with words like that.... but, with so many contradictions and blunders, it really does impress me when intelligent, educated people stand by him tooth and nail. if your elected leader f's up, you need to call him on it.

I'm sure that everyone would have been happier if this had been discovered and handled in military channels. That would not have absolved any guilt, but would be a lot easier to handle.

yeah, i wonder why it wasn't caught at that level. i also wonder if this is an isolated incident.

while i stand by my country, i stand by my people first. and by people, i mean HUMANS. i don't believe in calling iraqi towel heads, or even think it's funny that they were degraded like that. those kind of statements only show the true intentions of those who support the war in iraq. and it SURE AS HELL ain't a humanitation- let alone LIBERATING one.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by OCA
They were not abused, they were not tortured.

You're joking, right?

 

[OCA]

In my definition of torture no I don't think they were tortured or abused. Mistreated slightly? Yeah. I personally haven't seen any pics of beatings, solitary confinement, bamboo shoots under the nails, starvation you get the picture. So these guys blew off a little steam, its not like they burned anybody alive and left them swinging from a bridge is it?

 

[DKSuddeth]

physical abuse, no. Mental and emotional, hell yes.

Lets put it this way, if YOU were held as an Iraqi captive and bound, gagged, and blindfolded then stripped naked, put on a rickety box with wires attached to your hands and testicles then told that if you fall off, you'll be electrocuted would you consider that torture?

Or put it another way, if you and RWA were forced to imitate having doggie style sex with each other

you get the picture.

 

[OCA]

I get what you're saying but my view is war is war, You do what you got to do. I've never been in combat so I can only guess at the stress and the mindset that one is in and my only guess is these guys were blowing steam, maybe they lost some buddies that day who knows. I just know i'm not ready to condemn the war effort on account of some pics like some people, not saying you are.

The other explanation for my view could be that I must be a sick fuck! I saw those pics and laughed my ass off!

 

[spillmind]

The other explanation for my view could be that I must be a sick fuck! I saw those pics and laughed my ass off!

yeah, i'm sure you pushed that 'liberation' schtick as far as people would buy it, huh?

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by spillmind
yeah, i'm sure you pushed that 'liberation' schtick as far as people would buy it, huh?

You got me wrong pardner. Liberation, regime exchange etc. I don't give two shits about the reasons as long as we reap the benefits down the road.

As for war, its kill them before they kill me and sometimes civilians get hit, thats the way the game is played. Nobody intentionally targets civilians, well unless they happen to be in the mosque with the combatants. You see its not like the video games you've been playing here in the real world.

 

[spillmind]

Hey Spilly! Finally made it back from the surf?

hells yeah! i got a new longboard (about 9.5 ft) and it's working out awesome. the swell even picked up which is rare for this time of year! i'm one lucky mutha to be livin where i'm livin!

As for war, its kill them before they kill me and sometimes civilians get hit, thats the way the game is played. Nobody intentionally targets civilians, well unless they happen to be in the mosque with the combatants. You see its not like the video games you've been playing here in the real world.

believe you me, i know this is no 'game'. it's life and DEATH. and no, we don't target civililians, but sometimes we know they are in there when we drop that bomb from half a mile up.

You got me wrong pardner. Liberation, regime exchange etc. I don't give two shits about the reasons as long as we reap the benefits down the road.

what are these 'benefits', because the cream ain't looking all that desirable these days.

 

[OCA]

Well i'm for when its all said and done pulling up all available oil tankers under U.S. registry into the Persian Gulf and taking our payment for a job well done. Maybe a military base or two, how does staging B-52's out of Baghdad sound? Would work well against Iran.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by OCA
Well i'm for when its all said and done pulling up all available oil tankers under U.S. registry into the Persian Gulf and taking our payment for a job well done.

what job well done?

 

[OCA]

Ridding that country of a scumbag, bringing some form of represenative government to it and rebuilding its infrastructure. Fellas these things take time, gotta get rid of the bad eggs first. If you had asked somebody in Dec. 1942 if things were going good in WWII they would have said hell no! We were getting smoked in the Pacific by the Japanese and were bogged down in North Africa. Gotta give things time, everybody wants instant gratification and its just not gonna happen plus from Grenada, Panama, Gulf I and Kosovo this generation is used to very few casualties. I surmise that this generation has been seeing aberrations and are just now getting their first taste of real war.

 

[spillmind]

whoa now! WWII is like iraq??? i'm not following. the premise, the technology, and the 'game' has COMPLETELY changed. i'd rather you draw a couple of REAL parallels than to just throw that our there. this isn't even real 'war'. who is the enemy? is this is enemy that you laughed out loud at seeing them humiliated?

things aren't exactly like 'all's fair' when the playing field isn't level. and people accuse me of tying together two different things

 

[DKSuddeth]

first off, I didn't say anything about instant gratification of anything. Second, in reference to the torture and abuse portion of this thread, we seem to be giving reprimands and admonishments over the mistreatment of these iraqi prisoners when I know damn well that most everybody would be screaming for war crimes prosecution had the same thing been done to americans by iraqi soldiers.

Do we, or do we not, hold ourselves to a higher standard?

 

[st8_o_mind]

Originally posted by OCA
I get what you're saying but my view is war is war, You do what you got to do.

If it were simply a matter of military capability the issue would have been resolved a year ago when the US military rolled up the Iraqi army, entered the capitol, and deposed the government.

The military held up their end, it is the political effort that has, largely, failed. At least in the 82nd airborne, there is an old expression. Poor Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performence. That virturally defines the post-major combat operation in Iraq.

Originally posted by OCA The other explanation for my view could be that I must be a sick fuck! I saw those pics and laughed my ass off! [/B]

It is less funny if you consider the consequences those photo's will have for the US forces serving in Iraq. They clearly strengthen the hand of the radicals and America haters. In a very real sense, the photo's give aid to the enemy.

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
first off, I didn't say anything about instant gratification of anything. Second, in reference to the torture and abuse portion of this thread, we seem to be giving reprimands and admonishments over the mistreatment of these iraqi prisoners when I know damn well that most everybody would be screaming for war crimes prosecution had the same thing been done to americans by iraqi soldiers.

Do we, or do we not, hold ourselves to a higher standard?

Well I guess we do hold ourselves to higher standard in everything except war. I believe that war is win at all costs short of targeting civilians, women, children and needlessly annihilating half the planet with nukes. I'm just not ready to say that these guys are criminals for taking a few liberties with scumbags who are hindering the progress of their own country, if they were even Iraqis. Did these guys do anything even remotely as offensive as to what happened to Jessica Lynch? I repeat my question of earlier, did they go as far to bomb and burn innocent civilians and string them up from a bridge?

My belief is when you ramshackle the military with pc, you are diminishing the effectiveness of the military. They are not the place for social experimentation, you know this as you were in the Corps.

As for the political failings put forth by ST8 i'd say its not so much bad planning as much as a concerted effort on Demos and the media to concentrate on only the negative and their failure to accentuate the positive that is hampering post major combat. If the military was unleashed to do its job there is no doubt that civilians would die, can somebody tell me what the Demos and the media would do with that? I'll give you 1 guess and it doesn't involve thank you cards.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by OCA
Well I guess we do hold ourselves to higher standard in everything except war. I believe that war is win at all costs short of targeting civilians, women, children and needlessly annihilating half the planet with nukes. I'm just not ready to say that these guys are criminals for taking a few liberties with scumbags who are hindering the progress of their own country, if they were even Iraqis. Did these guys do anything even remotely as offensive as to what happened to Jessica Lynch? I repeat my question of earlier, did they go as far to bomb and burn innocent civilians and string them up from a bridge?

My belief is when you ramshackle the military with pc, you are diminishing the effectiveness of the military. They are not the place for social experimentation, you know this as you were in the Corps.

OCA, it's not a matter of PC (which I also think is ridiculous). it's a matter of proper treatment of POWs, in accordance with a treaty that we have signed (the Geneva conventions). This treatement of prisoners is simply not acceptable. It would not be received well if American prisoners were treated this way, either.

 

[DKSuddeth]

It's completely absurd to justify these types of abuses using the 'we're not as bad as they are' excuse. It's complete hypocrisy to try to show the world that we stand for fairness, justice, and liberty when we can downplay or dismiss the 'liberties' taken with a handful of prisoners.

people wonder why we have a bad rap around the world, jeesh

 

[spillmind]

here's where the supporters of the war become divided. on one hand, you have the proponents of the war that think that actually understand how to achieve our goal- and that's why they are worried about the latest blow to our chances. these pictures have only served to create more animosity agaist our occupying force. yeah it was bad under saddam, but it's still bad under the americans. the supporters of bush should be (and generally are) very worried about the effect that these latest images have generated internationally. they also know that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

then there's the other war supporters who think 'damn the torpedos' and to hell with it all, kill em and let god sort em out. hell, they don't even *have* a real god, anyway, right? these are the people i worry about the most. it's this kind of mentality that generated these images in the first place!

we'll see how the admin handles this whole thing. still unfolding...