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1. he trained arab nationalists - not Al Qaeda
2. more Iraqis have died in the last five years than in the previous five
3. hezbollah's muscle flexing in Lebanon is a direct result of Iran's increasing regional influence
and again:
Invading Iraq may have been "justified"...that does not make it any less stupid.
I am with you there. and there is certainly no doubt that Jesus would not have invaded Iraq, nor would he approved of it, so those Bushies who got us into this mess will certainly get turned away at the Pearly Gates if they make it that far!
Bushites would have you believe that Jesus would have welcomed our invasion of Iraq. They want us to believe that Christ would have flown one of the invasion aircraft.
But Jesus was above all a peace maker. The Neocons will pay dearly.
And God drowned and killed the Egyptians in the Red Sea that Moses parted with his staff. I'm not a religious nut job, I just think you can't base the decision of whether or not to go to war based on religion either way.
Facts-
1. Majority of Democrats and Republicans supported the war before its onset.
2. Senate Democrats could have prevented a war vote from being finalized.
3. Bush didn't lie leading up to the war, at the time the things he was stating was common knowledge of both parties.
4. If there was any legal basis, Democrats in Congress would be holding impeachment hearings right now.
5. Obama has no 'tangible' plan for Iraq, only that we shouldn't have went in the first place.
6. Obama has stated "perhaps" I would have voted for the war had I been in the U.S. Senate at the time.
...
...KING: We're back with Senator Obama.
A "Washington Post" editorial today took issue with President Bush, with Senator Clinton and with you on all your respective positions on Iraq, calling them fantasies, saying that all your speeches promise the impossible.
On the suggestion of your troops withdrawal plans: "In the 16 months or so it would take to remove those forces, they envision" -- you and Senator Clinton -- "the near miraculous accomplishment of every political goal the Bush administration aimed at for five years -- from the establishment of a stable government to an agreement by Iraq's neighbors to support it."
Are you in fantasyland?
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: Well, no, Larry. And I think that "The Washington Post" mischaracterized my position. What I've said is that we need to begin a phased withdrawal out of Iraq. I've been saying this for a long time now. And I warned from the outset, from the beginning of this war -- which I opposed -- that this was going to distract us from the fight we needed to fight in Afghanistan, that this was going to fan the flames of anti-American sentiment.
And once we were in, I said there weren't going to be any good options. And I still believe that. There are no good options in Iraq. There are bad options and worse options. The least bad option, I believe, is to begin a phased redeployment, send a clear signal to the Iraqi government it is time for them to stand up and negotiate the kinds of agreements that can stick and stabilize the country, to get the neighbors in Iraq involved -- and that includes not just our allies like Saudi Arabia and Jordan, but also Iran and Syria.
And to get the international community involved in creating a humanitarian assistance program, to have an international war crimes commission that can monitor any efforts at ethnic cleansing inside the country and that we would still have a strike force that would go after any attempts to create al Qaeda bases in Iraq. Now is that going to be an ideal situation in which all the parties in Iraq have suddenly magically agreed? Of course not. And I don't know what "The Washington Post" thinks is going to happen if we just stay and continue in the same process we are now.
There are no magic bullets here. But what we can do is at least put some pressure on the Iraqi government to make sure that we start seeing some changes....
1. you can't read the articles I posted
2. you can't simply analyze how many died in the previous five, you would have to take into consideration the overall rule of Saddam.
3. Wrong, Hezbollah's support is coming from Labanese Shi'ites and Syria
5. Obama has no 'tangible' plan for Iraq, only that we shouldn't have went in the first place.
Wrong.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/#bring-home
Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months[/U]. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.
Press Iraqs Leaders to Reconcile
The best way to press Iraqs leaders to take responsibility for their future is to make it clear that we are leaving. As we remove our troops, Obama will engage representatives from all levels of Iraqi society in and out of government to seek a new accord on Iraqs Constitution and governance. The United Nations will play a central role in this convention, which should not adjourn until a new national accord is reached addressing tough questions like federalism and oil revenue-sharing.
Regional Diplomacy
Obama will launch the most aggressive diplomatic effort in recent American history to reach a new compact on the stability of Iraq and the Middle East. This effort will include all of Iraqs neighbors including Iran and Syria. This compact will aim to secure Iraqs borders; keep neighboring countries from meddling inside Iraq; isolate al Qaeda; support reconciliation among Iraqs sectarian groups; and provide financial support for Iraqs reconstruction.
Humanitarian Initiative
Obama believes that America has a moral and security responsibility to confront Iraqs humanitarian crisis two million Iraqis are refugees; two million more are displaced inside their own country. Obama will form an international working group to address this crisis. He will provide at least $2 billion to expand services to Iraqi refugees in neighboring countries, and ensure that Iraqis inside their own country can find a safe-haven.
...
Did you catch Obama on LKL the other night? Anyone really think he's going to get the troops home, right now?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/20/lkl.01.html
1. Like I said, there is zero proof that Saddam trained Al Qaeda operatives... and for anyone who knew anything about the aims of Al Qaeda, such actions would clearly have been suicidal on his part.
2. Of course you can analyze the last five years versus the previous five if you want to have a valid comparison. Given the past ten years, five under Saddam and five under the occupation of the United States, when were Iraqi civilians safer? How many were being killed a week during those first five years versus the past five years? To claim that we need to look at the sweep of Saddam's entire rule and compare death totals of THAT period to the totals from the last five years is ridiculous. Based upon that stupid illogic, one could say that Jews would be SAFER in Gaza then they would be in Germany because, over the last 70 years, WAY more Jews have died in Germany than have died in Gaza.
3. No on is denying that Hezbollah gets support from Lebanese Shiites - THAT IS WHO THEY ARE! No in denying that Syria is providing them support...keeping Lebanon in turmoil is in Syria's best interest and has been for over thirty years. But to suggest that Hezbollah is not supported by Iran is laughable.
http://www.usip.org/pubs/usipeace_briefings/2006/0922_iran_hezbollah.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/18/news/iran.php
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2368658
1. Like I said, there is zero proof that Saddam trained Al Qaeda operatives... and for anyone who knew anything about the aims of Al Qaeda, such actions would clearly have been suicidal on his part.
2. Of course you can analyze the last five years versus the previous five if you want to have a valid comparison. Given the past ten years, five under Saddam and five under the occupation of the United States, when were Iraqi civilians safer? How many were being killed a week during those first five years versus the past five years? To claim that we need to look at the sweep of Saddam's entire rule and compare death totals of THAT period to the totals from the last five years is ridiculous. Based upon that stupid illogic, one could say that Jews would be SAFER in Gaza then they would be in Germany because, over the last 70 years, WAY more Jews have died in Germany than have died in Gaza.
3. No on is denying that Hezbollah gets support from Lebanese Shiites - THAT IS WHO THEY ARE! No in denying that Syria is providing them support...keeping Lebanon in turmoil is in Syria's best interest and has been for over thirty years. But to suggest that Hezbollah is not supported by Iran is laughable.
http://www.usip.org/pubs/usipeace_briefings/2006/0922_iran_hezbollah.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/18/news/iran.php
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2368658
Wrong.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/#bring-home
Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months[/U]. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.
Press Iraqs Leaders to Reconcile
The best way to press Iraqs leaders to take responsibility for their future is to make it clear that we are leaving. As we remove our troops, Obama will engage representatives from all levels of Iraqi society in and out of government to seek a new accord on Iraqs Constitution and governance. The United Nations will play a central role in this convention, which should not adjourn until a new national accord is reached addressing tough questions like federalism and oil revenue-sharing.
Regional Diplomacy
Obama will launch the most aggressive diplomatic effort in recent American history to reach a new compact on the stability of Iraq and the Middle East. This effort will include all of Iraqs neighbors including Iran and Syria. This compact will aim to secure Iraqs borders; keep neighboring countries from meddling inside Iraq; isolate al Qaeda; support reconciliation among Iraqs sectarian groups; and provide financial support for Iraqs reconstruction.
Humanitarian Initiative
Obama believes that America has a moral and security responsibility to confront Iraqs humanitarian crisis two million Iraqis are refugees; two million more are displaced inside their own country. Obama will form an international working group to address this crisis. He will provide at least $2 billion to expand services to Iraqi refugees in neighboring countries, and ensure that Iraqis inside their own country can find a safe-haven.
1. again you fail to read my posts
2. No, to simply look at the previous past 5 years, isn't a logical comparison. For one, Iraq is in a war of course there are going to be dead Shiites, Sunnis and every other sector of the population. If you want a logical comparison, then look at the deaths following the end of the war. This would be an adequate comparison. Considering the previous five years were based in relative peace.
3. If I stated that Iran doesn't support Hezbollah I was wrong. Hezbollah is supported mainly by Syria and Labenese shi'ites.
1. I don't fail to read your posts, I fail to find any proof of Saddam's training of Al Qaeda in them or anywhere else, which would make sense, because, as stated, it would be fucking INSANE for him to train and arm terrorists whose primary mission was the elimination of his own nation state.
2. I said that Saddam did a better job of keeping sunnis and shiites from killing one another than we have done. THAT is a fact.
3.Hezbollah IS Lebanese shiites. And you need to post a link to something factual (as oppsed to editorial) that would show that Syrian support is significantly greater than Iranian support.
