Burma

[RetiredGySgt]

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!

Now he's going to tell us about how Iraq attacked the U.S. "for years"

1) Iraq never attacked us. Sure, Hussein murdered his own people... invaded Kuwait... was a First Class Jackass of the highest type... but, really, they never attacked us.

2) I'd like to think that we're in favor of democracy for any country regardless of the size of the country... or maybe you're saying we only care about democracy in countries we can easily beat up on?

Sure thing, Saddam Hussein did NOT try to assassinate a US President, he did NOT fire routinely on American Air craft in the no fly zones? He did not try and shop around for a terrorist organization to attack the US. He did not keep and plan to resume research on nuclear weapons when he got his buddies France, Russia and China to lift sanctions. He did not develop missiles with ranges longer than allowed.

Now if you believe all that I have a bridge I would love to sell you, it is a great bridge too.

 

[Diuretic]

So with one exception the liberals on this board are not against invading other countries? Just against invading ones they did not pick, I got it.

I can only speak for myself but I'm for enlightened self-interest driving foreign policy for my country. Invading other countries probably affects our enlightened self-interest and is generally to be avoided.

 

[Diuretic]

Err...Burma isn't exactly small. Compared to China it is, but its not small.



Try not to generalize so much. Liberals have many different ideas on the matter. I have never ruled out invasions of countries for humanitarian grounds. I've always been a supporter of that.

That's no justification for invasion.

 

[Larkinn]

That's no justification for invasion.

Humanitarian grounds is no justification for invasion? Is that your claim or something more specific?

 

[jasendorf]

Sure thing, Saddam Hussein did NOT try to assassinate a US President, he did NOT fire routinely on American Air craft in the no fly zones? He did not try and shop around for a terrorist organization to attack the US. He did not keep and plan to resume research on nuclear weapons when he got his buddies France, Russia and China to lift sanctions. He did not develop missiles with ranges longer than allowed.

Now if you believe all that I have a bridge I would love to sell you, it is a great bridge too.

You're weak minded if you eat that sheep feed.

 

[hjmick]

The spirit of freedom and liberty that has been expunged in the nation formerly known as the "Home of the Brave" has arrived in Burma.

I expect to hear any moment that the Bush Regime and its Cavalier brigades of the CIA Restorationists have endorsed Regime Preservation on behalf of the Soldier Monarchists that are coming under withering attack from Monks and unarmed demonstrators.

It is reported from the White House that shipments of high tech rice flails are being smuggled across the border from rice flail armed Bangladeshi for the benefit of rice fail armed resistors.

My heart is with the people of Burma. The soldier monarchists of Myanmar can take a hike.

I AM

Yep...you sure nailed that one:

"The world is watching the people of Burma take to the streets to demand their freedom, and the American people stand in solidarity with these brave individuals," President Bush said in a statement.

"We feel admiration and compassion for the monks and peaceful protesters calling for democracy," Bush said. "Every civilized nation has a responsibility to stand up for people suffering under a brutal military regime like the one that has ruled Burma for too long."

US freezes assets of 14 top Myanmar officials

 

[Larkinn]

> 7:41 AM, Sep 28, Rangoon

>
>
> About 200 Protesters Killed, over 700 Arrested and Hospitals Instructed not to send Ambulances, Snipers Used to Shoot at Leaders

>
>
> I have reported this morning that numbers of arrest were about 150. However, I was wrong. According to several eye witness accounts, number of arrest yesterday night was more than 700 and number of death was more than two hundreds. Please see the details below.

>
>

>
> (1) Yesterday night (Sep 27 in Rangoon), the junta's security forces have raided some major Monasteries in Rangoon, Mandalay, Pakkoku, Sittwe, Mon Ywar and many other cities. In Rangoon, we can confirm that at least a dozen of Monasteries in Tamwe, Thingangyun, South Okkalapa, Bahan and North Okkalapa Townships. Soldiers came at midnight or early morning and entered the monastery compounds with force. Then they run to the monasteries as they were trying to occupy the enemy camps, by shooting, shouting and beating anyone on their ways and destroying and stealing all belongings. A number of monks were killed and several others were severely injured during the raids. In Rangoon alone, over seven hundred monks were arrested yesterday night.

>
>
> (2) Five eye witnesses told me about the raid at the Ngwe Kyar Yan Monastery in South Okkalapa Township. Several hundreds of soldiers came quietly with 24 trucks at midnight. They stopped the trucks nearby the Monastery and run into the Monastery with shouting dirty words. Then they broke the door and entered the compound. Some monks fought back by throwing stones at them, but they were not able to resist the brutal attack of the soldiers, who are trained to kill. They also fired several shots at monks. Everybody in the neighborhood heard the voices of gun fires, shouting, crying, etc. At 2:00 AM, the soldiers left the compound with over 200 monks whom they have captured. Nobody dared to go out as they needed to obey the curfew order. In the morning today when they went to the Monasteries, they saw the bloods everywhere and all buildings were destroyed. Some monks told them that senior Abbot of the Monastery and three other monks were killed by gun-shots and beating and soldiers brought their dead bodies. About 50 monks were left at the monastery with severe trauma and injuries and people from neighborhood tried to cure injuries they have sustained. However, soldiers came again at 10:30 AM in the morning to pick up the rest of monks. They announced with loud-speakers to the public to move away from the monastery and they took the monks with the trucks they were riding. Thousands of angry people blocked the road from front and back of them and asked the soldiers to leave the monks alone. Tense confrontation between angry crowd and the soldiers lasted two hours with shooting fire and tear gas by the soldiers and throwing stones by the people from 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM. Then additional troops came in with several trucks, fired several warning shots in the air and threatened to shoot at the crowd. Finally, the angry people decided to give way to the soldiers and they left from the street. Ngwe Kyar Yan Monastery is very respected by the residents for its discipline, Buddhist teaching and its cooperation with the residents. This Monastery is also famous for its participation in the 1988 popular democracy uprising in Burma.

>
>
> (3) The other monasteries, including Meggin Monastery in Thingangyun Township, Sasana Veikman, Sasana Gonyi and Sasana Theikpan monasteries in Bahan Township, were also raided with same fashion by the soldiers at yesterday night and at least, seven hundred monks were brutally attacked and arrested by the soldiers in Rangoon alone.

>
>
> (4) As the news of the soldiers' raids on the monasteries and casualties and arrest of monks spread all over the city, angry people came to the streets to challenge the junta for its injustices today, Sep 27. Hundred of thousands of people came to streets and confronted with blood-thirsty soldiers at various parts of the city. Security forces mercilessly fired at the crowd, threw tear gas and smoke bombs at the crowd and beaten the crowd with batons and rifle butts. Hundreds of the peaceful protesters were killed by soldiers nearby Sule Pagoda, at Bahan, at Thingangyun, at State High School No.3 in Tamwe Township, etc. The Rangoon General Hospital has received over 100 dead bodies today.

>
>
> (5) Eye witnesses said that soldiers fired with automatic rifles at State High School No. 3 in Tamwe Township. Now is the examination period in Burma and the school was full with young students who were sitting for an examination and their parents who were waiting for their kids. Actually, soldiers shot at the student protesters who were staging peaceful protest in front the school and bullets flied into the school randomly. About one hundred students and their parents were killed.

>
>
> (6) Hospitals in Rangoon are instructed by the junta not to send ambulances to anywhere unless they have permission from the authority. Some angry doctors confronted with Dr. Kyaw Myint, the junta's minister of health and they were told to obey the order. Numbers of death became more as victims were not able hospitalized in time.

>
>
> (7) Among the death, one is the Japanese photographer who worked for AFP. Sources said that another foreigner, a German national, was also killed and an American sustained gun-shot wound.

>
>
> (8) NLD leaders were also arrested yesterday night. NLD CEC U Hla Pe and a spokesperson U Myint Thein were taken into custody by police. U Hla Pe's son died by a shock just 15 minutes after his father was taken. Two ethnic leaders, U Pu Chin Sian Thang and U Htaung Ko Thang were also arrested along with NLD Rangoon Divisional Organizing Committee Members Dr. Win Naing, U Hla Thein and U Than Naing. According to NLD, over 40 NLD members were arrested.

>
>

>
> (9) According to various sources, several leaders of the protest were killed by snipers, who shot them from above nearby Sule Pagoda. They believed that snipers shot those whom they thought as the leaders of the protest from the roof top of the Rangoon City Hall.

>
>

>
> (10) Meanwhile, remaining leaders of All Burma Monks' Alliance, the 88 Generation Students, the 88 Generation Journalists, All Burma Poets Group, formed a coalition called "Supervising Committee for Mass Movement" and called for the people of Burma to continue the peaceful protest.

>
>
> (11) A leader of All Burma Monks' Alliance, U Gambiya, spoke to VOA Burmese Service from his hiding place this evening and he condemned the military junta for arrest and killing. He encouraged the people of Burma not to surrender the will of the junta.

>
>
> (12) As the SPDC continues to combat the protesters in day time and raid the Monasteries and homes of leading dissidents at night, the number of arrest will exceed dramatically over the current number over 1,000 since August 19, 2007. As of this writing, some monasteries in South Dagon Myothit, a Seattleite town of Rangoon, are being surrounded by several hundreds of soldiers.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You're weak minded if you eat that sheep feed.

Your Ignorant if you do not believe what I listed. Be specific, what part of it is untrue? It is all backed by facts, paper work and verifiable information. A lot of it from Iraqi government records captured after the fall of Iraq.

But do pretend otherwise.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

> 7:41 AM, Sep 28, Rangoon

>
>
> About 200 Protesters Killed, over 700 Arrested and Hospitals Instructed not to send Ambulances, Snipers Used to Shoot at Leaders

>
>
> I have reported this morning that numbers of arrest were about 150. However, I was wrong. According to several eye witness accounts, number of arrest yesterday night was more than 700 and number of death was more than two hundreds. Please see the details below.

>
>

>
> (1) Yesterday night (Sep 27 in Rangoon), the junta's security forces have raided some major Monasteries in Rangoon, Mandalay, Pakkoku, Sittwe, Mon Ywar and many other cities. In Rangoon, we can confirm that at least a dozen of Monasteries in Tamwe, Thingangyun, South Okkalapa, Bahan and North Okkalapa Townships. Soldiers came at midnight or early morning and entered the monastery compounds with force. Then they run to the monasteries as they were trying to occupy the enemy camps, by shooting, shouting and beating anyone on their ways and destroying and stealing all belongings. A number of monks were killed and several others were severely injured during the raids. In Rangoon alone, over seven hundred monks were arrested yesterday night.

>
>
> (2) Five eye witnesses told me about the raid at the Ngwe Kyar Yan Monastery in South Okkalapa Township. Several hundreds of soldiers came quietly with 24 trucks at midnight. They stopped the trucks nearby the Monastery and run into the Monastery with shouting dirty words. Then they broke the door and entered the compound. Some monks fought back by throwing stones at them, but they were not able to resist the brutal attack of the soldiers, who are trained to kill. They also fired several shots at monks. Everybody in the neighborhood heard the voices of gun fires, shouting, crying, etc. At 2:00 AM, the soldiers left the compound with over 200 monks whom they have captured. Nobody dared to go out as they needed to obey the curfew order. In the morning today when they went to the Monasteries, they saw the bloods everywhere and all buildings were destroyed. Some monks told them that senior Abbot of the Monastery and three other monks were killed by gun-shots and beating and soldiers brought their dead bodies. About 50 monks were left at the monastery with severe trauma and injuries and people from neighborhood tried to cure injuries they have sustained. However, soldiers came again at 10:30 AM in the morning to pick up the rest of monks. They announced with loud-speakers to the public to move away from the monastery and they took the monks with the trucks they were riding. Thousands of angry people blocked the road from front and back of them and asked the soldiers to leave the monks alone. Tense confrontation between angry crowd and the soldiers lasted two hours with shooting fire and tear gas by the soldiers and throwing stones by the people from 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM. Then additional troops came in with several trucks, fired several warning shots in the air and threatened to shoot at the crowd. Finally, the angry people decided to give way to the soldiers and they left from the street. Ngwe Kyar Yan Monastery is very respected by the residents for its discipline, Buddhist teaching and its cooperation with the residents. This Monastery is also famous for its participation in the 1988 popular democracy uprising in Burma.

>
>
> (3) The other monasteries, including Meggin Monastery in Thingangyun Township, Sasana Veikman, Sasana Gonyi and Sasana Theikpan monasteries in Bahan Township, were also raided with same fashion by the soldiers at yesterday night and at least, seven hundred monks were brutally attacked and arrested by the soldiers in Rangoon alone.

>
>
> (4) As the news of the soldiers' raids on the monasteries and casualties and arrest of monks spread all over the city, angry people came to the streets to challenge the junta for its injustices today, Sep 27. Hundred of thousands of people came to streets and confronted with blood-thirsty soldiers at various parts of the city. Security forces mercilessly fired at the crowd, threw tear gas and smoke bombs at the crowd and beaten the crowd with batons and rifle butts. Hundreds of the peaceful protesters were killed by soldiers nearby Sule Pagoda, at Bahan, at Thingangyun, at State High School No.3 in Tamwe Township, etc. The Rangoon General Hospital has received over 100 dead bodies today.

>
>
> (5) Eye witnesses said that soldiers fired with automatic rifles at State High School No. 3 in Tamwe Township. Now is the examination period in Burma and the school was full with young students who were sitting for an examination and their parents who were waiting for their kids. Actually, soldiers shot at the student protesters who were staging peaceful protest in front the school and bullets flied into the school randomly. About one hundred students and their parents were killed.

>
>
> (6) Hospitals in Rangoon are instructed by the junta not to send ambulances to anywhere unless they have permission from the authority. Some angry doctors confronted with Dr. Kyaw Myint, the junta's minister of health and they were told to obey the order. Numbers of death became more as victims were not able hospitalized in time.

>
>
> (7) Among the death, one is the Japanese photographer who worked for AFP. Sources said that another foreigner, a German national, was also killed and an American sustained gun-shot wound.

>
>
> (8) NLD leaders were also arrested yesterday night. NLD CEC U Hla Pe and a spokesperson U Myint Thein were taken into custody by police. U Hla Pe's son died by a shock just 15 minutes after his father was taken. Two ethnic leaders, U Pu Chin Sian Thang and U Htaung Ko Thang were also arrested along with NLD Rangoon Divisional Organizing Committee Members Dr. Win Naing, U Hla Thein and U Than Naing. According to NLD, over 40 NLD members were arrested.

>
>

>
> (9) According to various sources, several leaders of the protest were killed by snipers, who shot them from above nearby Sule Pagoda. They believed that snipers shot those whom they thought as the leaders of the protest from the roof top of the Rangoon City Hall.

>
>

>
> (10) Meanwhile, remaining leaders of All Burma Monks' Alliance, the 88 Generation Students, the 88 Generation Journalists, All Burma Poets Group, formed a coalition called "Supervising Committee for Mass Movement" and called for the people of Burma to continue the peaceful protest.

>
>
> (11) A leader of All Burma Monks' Alliance, U Gambiya, spoke to VOA Burmese Service from his hiding place this evening and he condemned the military junta for arrest and killing. He encouraged the people of Burma not to surrender the will of the junta.

>
>
> (12) As the SPDC continues to combat the protesters in day time and raid the Monasteries and homes of leading dissidents at night, the number of arrest will exceed dramatically over the current number over 1,000 since August 19, 2007. As of this writing, some monasteries in South Dagon Myothit, a Seattleite town of Rangoon, are being surrounded by several hundreds of soldiers.

Yes, lets remove the right of private citizens to own weapons in this country, shall we? I bet these people wished they had weapons available. I bet the police and troops are glad they do not.

Just like in Bosnia-Herzivogania and Croatia.


Back to the protests. So Larkinn, should we invade?

 

[Diuretic]

Humanitarian grounds is no justification for invasion? Is that your claim or something more specific?

That's my claim.

 

[Larkinn]

Yes, lets remove the right of private citizens to own weapons in this country, shall we? I bet these people wished they had weapons available. I bet the police and troops are glad they do not.

Just like in Bosnia-Herzivogania and Croatia.


Back to the protests. So Larkinn, should we invade?

The protestors are preaching nonviolence. Most of the time they aren't even fighting back. Most of those being killed are MONKS. They aren't exactly going to start packing heat. And really...thanks for using their deaths to promote an American political point which has no relevance here. Real fucking compassionate.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The protestors are preaching nonviolence. Most of the time they aren't even fighting back. Most of those being killed are MONKS. They aren't exactly going to start packing heat. And really...thanks for using their deaths to promote an American political point which has no relevance here. Real fucking compassionate.

Yup and of course all the citizens of that country that are NOT monks that are unable to do anything to help them believe the same, your ignorance is appalling.

As for non violence ,it only works if the powers that be let it work. A murderous regime with the backing of the military is not likely to roll over and give up, take China as evidence.

 

[Diuretic]

Yup and of course all the citizens of that country that are NOT monks that are unable to do anything to help them believe the same, your ignorance is appalling.

As for non violence ,it only works if the powers that be let it work. A murderous regime with the backing of the military is not likely to roll over and give up, take China as evidence.

Non-violence works when the time is right. As in so many things timing is of the essence. Gandhi grabbed a handful of salt.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Non-violence works when the time is right. As in so many things timing is of the essence. Gandhi grabbed a handful of salt.

India was "freed" because Britain was not a murderous heartless Country that could just ignore world opinion. You will note that in the " non violent" protests against the British many Indians died. The difference being that Britain then investigated those murders and punished the Commanders that authorized them.

India also was not released until AFTER WW2 as were all the rest of the British possessions. The United States had some to do with that, seeing as how Britain was just a tad in our debt and not nearly as powerful nor rich as it had been before the war. If the US had told Britain in the 30's to abandon India they would have LAUGHED at us.

Non Violence only works when the master is willing to allow it to work.

 

[Diuretic]

RGS wrote:

Non Violence only works when the master is willing to allow it to work.

And that is absolutely right. I can't and won't question that at all. It's simply correct.

But as I said, timing is of the essence.

If Gandhi had tried his salt march at the time of the Sepoy Rebellion how woudl he have fared? Would he have been strapped to the mouth of a canon?

Probably.

As I said, timing is everything.

 

[Diuretic]

India also was not released until AFTER WW2 as were all the rest of the British possessions. The United States had some to do with that, seeing as how Britain was just a tad in our debt and not nearly as powerful nor rich as it had been before the war. If the US had told Britain in the 30's to abandon India they would have LAUGHED at us.

And that's an excellent point RGS. You are damn right. Imperial Britain would have laughed at anyone's pleas to free India from imperial domination. Empires do that. WW2 was a terrible event but it did break the British Empire and the Empire became the Commonwealth and eventually the British imperialists let go of their colonies (of course some like Australia were too bloody gutless to get rid of the Crown). Such is the way of the world. But again, timing is everything.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And that's an excellent point RGS. You are damn right. Imperial Britain would have laughed at anyone's pleas to free India from imperial domination. Empires do that. WW2 was a terrible event but it did break the British Empire and the Empire became the Commonwealth and eventually the British imperialists let go of their colonies (of course some like Australia were too bloody gutless to get rid of the Crown). Such is the way of the world. But again, timing is everything.

You missed the other salient point. Even before the British were weakened they did not condone large scale murder of civilians. Now to be fair they did not mind small scale easily hidden killings, nor arrests and deportations. BUT the point is world opinion AND their own sense of justice worked against them keeping their "Empire" if parts of it wanted out.

That is simply not true in Burma, nor was it true in the Balkans. And it is not true in China either. Talking and peaceful resistance didn't work to well in Rawanda either. Nor in all most all of Africa.

 

[Diuretic]

You missed the other salient point. Even before the British were weakened they did not condone large scale murder of civilians. Now to be fair they did not mind small scale easily hidden killings, nor arrests and deportations. BUT the point is world opinion AND their own sense of justice worked against them keeping their "Empire" if parts of it wanted out.

That is simply not true in Burma, nor was it true in the Balkans. And it is not true in China either. Talking and peaceful resistance didn't work to well in Rawanda either. Nor in all most all of Africa.

Partial agreement, if I may say so. The British had absolutely no moral qualms about brutally putting down any resistance to them. The Sepoy Rebellion/Mutiny is but one example. And let's not forget that the Brits invented concentration camps during the Boer War. They discovered a sense of justice in terms of international relations when they were becoming weakened well before WWII.

As for Burma, now, they're like Mugabe, they're on a good thing for them and their mates and they're not giving it up. They are dictators, not imperialists.

 

[Larkinn]

Yup and of course all the citizens of that country that are NOT monks that are unable to do anything to help them believe the same, your ignorance is appalling.

Moron, some of them have weapons. There have been brutal insurgencies going on in Burma for years now.

As for non violence ,it only works if the powers that be let it work. A murderous regime with the backing of the military is not likely to roll over and give up, take China as evidence.

Its their choice, not yours.

 

[DiogenesDog]

Rangoon: ‘army mutiny’ reported

Troops refuse to fire on crowds

Reports from Rangoon suggest soldiers are mutinying. It is unclear the numbers involved. Reports cite heavy shooting in the former Burmese capital.

This is big stuff. Burma has been a "Hermit Kingdom" on the scale of North Korea. I know a man, still living, who was the child of Brit Colonials who was born on some remote plantation in a North west province. He is 87. I will have to go see him again soon.

I believe that if things settle out there, I will visit. I recommend a read of "Stillwell's China". (I think I repeat myself.) A change of regime there will change the geometry of the regional security situation as long as the US lets it happen. Of course there will be a woman in charge. That could be Aung San Suu Kyi. I think Aung San is Tibeto-Burman for Hillary.

I want the little guys to win.

I AM