British spies helped the Japanese to plan the Pearl Harbor attack.

Urbanguerrilla

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Aug 27, 2010
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A BBC programme to be shown on BBC 2 television tonight at 9pm will show how high ranking British spies helped the Japanese to plan the Pearl Harbor attack.

One was Lord Semphill. He began aiding the Japanese during the Anglo-Japanese alliance. He played a crucial role in building up the Japanese carrier fleet during the 1920s and 30s. In 1939 he was working for the British admiralty. In 1941 he reported on discussions between Roosevelt and Churchill which showed much of the American fleet was deployed in the Atlantic and could not respond to an attack on Pearl Harbor. Despite knowledge of his treachery becoming known, the British took no action against him beyond a demotion.

The other spy was Frederick Rutland who also helped to develop the Japanese carrier fleet. Later he moved to Hawaii where he worked for US military companies whose secrets he sent to Tokyo. In 1941 he sent photographs of Pearl Harbor to Japan. He was detained during the war but never prosecuted. The Fall of Singapore: The Great Betrayal
 
Nice to know some specifics.

Most already know FDR was a fucking traitorous tyrant bent on getting Americans killed so we would be forced from isolation and the Depression could finally end.

liberals worship fdr and wonder why conservatives don't.
 
The Great Depression didn't end because of the war. It ended when the war was over and controls over the economy were lifted (and a very large work force came home to meet the needs of expanding industry shifting to peacetime production).
 
Wartime conditions suspended the prewar economic reality, but real, sustained growth did not return until artificial controls were lifted.
 
BBC Two - The Fall of Singapore: The Great Betrayal

Excellent documentary.

MI5 knew about William Forbes-Sempill since 1923. He was cautioned by the Atorney General in 1924 but continued to work for the Japanese right through the war although he was rumbled several times. He was protected by the very people he was spying on because he was a peer.
 
What information could the Brits give the Japanese that they didn't already have? The Japanese had detailed maps of Pearl Harbor and they knew the depth of the water and the tides. Japanese spies informed them about US fleet movements. The only thing the Japanese didn't have was safe passage across the ocean. Or did they?
 
What information could the Brits give the Japanese that they didn't already have? The Japanese had detailed maps of Pearl Harbor and they knew the depth of the water and the tides. Japanese spies informed them about US fleet movements. The only thing the Japanese didn't have was safe passage across the ocean. Or did they?

Try and see the documentary if you can its quite good.

The British spys taught the Japanese how to fly off carriers, how to build carriers (dont forget at the time this was the latest war winning technology), gave them the latest details about the Jaguar IV engine which allowed them to build the Zero fighter bomber (which went on to prove its war winability by taking on a British battle group and sinking its capitol ship, The Prince of Wales); gave them the latest technology on aircraft dropped torpedoes.

When Churchill met Roosvelt the Japanese had a report of the meeting the next day courtesy of Sempill. He was awarded the Order of the Rising Sun.
 
Britain would do whatever was needed to sustain its grip on its empire. That included co-operating with a rising power in its sphere of influence. Paid off, while it lasted.
 
You have to keep in mind that the US was virtually a blind giant during the 30's. The State Dept consisted of old money elitists appointed to ambassador posts enjoying exotic lifestyles sometimes at their own expense. There was no "intelligence agency" as we know it today. The Navy had what was called an "intelligence dept" but it relied on the technology of the day and there was no central clearing house for information. The US had no espionage or counter espionage network and once the war started the courts ruled that the FBI would be the lead espionage agency even though Hoover's experience in espionage was limited to political enemies. The Brits were shocked about how little the US really understood about intelligence. No wonder the Japanese were able to sail across the Pacific and catch us with our pants down.
 
FDR's limited intelligence network relied on profoundly racist and stupid assessments of the Japanese military. The US government actually thought the Japanese were nearsighted little people who couldn't make a ship that would float or a plane that would fly. Politicians believed insanely racist rumors that the Japanese could not see straight and they would be disoriented if they attempted to fly a plane. The FDR administration based their Pacific strategy on limited intelligence and crazy assumptions. It's not hard to understand how FDR invited Japan to make the first strike so he could get the US into the "real war" in Europe.
 
FDR's limited intelligence network relied on profoundly racist and stupid assessments of the Japanese military. The US government actually thought the Japanese were nearsighted little people who couldn't make a ship that would float or a plane that would fly. Politicians believed insanely racist rumors that the Japanese could not see straight and they would be disoriented if they attempted to fly a plane. The FDR administration based their Pacific strategy on limited intelligence and crazy assumptions. It's not hard to understand how FDR invited Japan to make the first strike so he could get the US into the "real war" in Europe.



He could have just asked his buddies in Russia about how well Japan could fight an industrial western power.
 
FDR's limited intelligence network relied on profoundly racist and stupid assessments of the Japanese military. The US government actually thought the Japanese were nearsighted little people who couldn't make a ship that would float or a plane that would fly. Politicians believed insanely racist rumors that the Japanese could not see straight and they would be disoriented if they attempted to fly a plane. The FDR administration based their Pacific strategy on limited intelligence and crazy assumptions. It's not hard to understand how FDR invited Japan to make the first strike so he could get the US into the "real war" in Europe.



He could have just asked his buddies in Russia about how well Japan could fight an industrial western power.

The only thing that salvaged America's Pacific war was the leadership and courage of the US Marines. MacArthur's entire Phillippine Army surrendered at Bataan and Corrigidor and the entire British army surrendered at Singapore. Marines were abandoned by the timid Navy commanders in the first offensive in the Pacific at Guadalcanal without food or ammunition and by shear guts they still managed to take the Island.
 
You have to keep in mind that the US was virtually a blind giant during the 30's. The State Dept consisted of old money elitists appointed to ambassador posts enjoying exotic lifestyles sometimes at their own expense. There was no "intelligence agency" as we know it today. The Navy had what was called an "intelligence dept" but it relied on the technology of the day and there was no central clearing house for information. The US had no espionage or counter espionage network and once the war started the courts ruled that the FBI would be the lead espionage agency even though Hoover's experience in espionage was limited to political enemies. The Brits were shocked about how little the US really understood about intelligence. No wonder the Japanese were able to sail across the Pacific and catch us with our pants down.

I guess we corrected that within six months when American code breakers allowed the Americans to lie in wait and destroy the Japanese carrier force at Midway.

I really cannot believe this thread. Although there may have been some British cooperation with the Japanse in the 1920s, to claim that Britain aided the attack on Pearl Harbor is over the top. What would this gain Britain? It insured the loss of their Asian Empire. The only good it did was insure US entry into the war.

FDR was taking steps to curb Japanese aggression. Unfortunately his steps lead to the Japanese attack. However, his plan would not been to decimate the American fleet. Also, blaming FDR for American lives lost during WWII is really off base, the blame would more properly go to the governments of Japan and Germany.

Did FDR do a superlative job of running the war? No, but he did a credible job and we did win. I have more objection to how he navigated the end of the war. He seemed to don rose-colored classes when it came to Uncle Joe. I believe that people on this thread are allowing their objections with FDR's domestic policies to cloud their judgment.
 
Nontheless the 2010 Siena poll of 238 noted historians and presidential experts voted FDR America's greatest president, and every poll of historians has placed FDR as one of the three greatest American presidents. How did the people rate FDR, they voted for him four times, a record that will probably last for many a year.

As for Pearl Harbor perhaps the Congress ought to investigate Pearl Harbor one more time. There have been nine investigations so far and what were the results?
 
No US president has been more of a historic villian than FDR. This is overshadowed by the fact that he occupied the office during the time of some of the worst villians in the history of the world.
 

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