Bring Back the Draft?

[georgephillip]

"General Stanley A. McChrystal seems to think it's only fair:

"'I think we ought to have a draft. I think if a nation goes to war, it shouldn’t be solely be represented by a professional force, because it gets to be unrepresentative of the population,' McChrystal said at a late-night event June 29 at the 2012 Aspen Ideas Festival. 'I think if a nation goes to war, every town, every city needs to be at risk. You make that decision and everybody has skin in the game.'”

There seems to be at least one prominent leftie who thinks its worth considering:

"It’s certainly true that the volunteer army is a mess. Suicides are surging among the troops. According to AP, the 154 suicides for active duty troops in the first 155 days of the year far outdistance the US forces killed in Afghanistan."

Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Would a draft army discourage the next commander-in-chief from going to war?

 

[old navy]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

No draftees would not be less likely to commit suicide and the left does not want the draft to "help" the military. They believe a draft will prevent us from waging war when needed and provide a means to mount Viet Nam era protests if we do.

We have zero need for a draft. What we need is for an increase in the size of the military. We need about 60 more Army combat Brigades and a larger Navy and Airforce. We need more ships and modern aircraft. And all of that is doable with out a draft.

Daftees would lower the moral and fighting ability of the military. It would encourage a leftist Congress to lower pay and allowances. It would wreck what we have now.

Assuming no end strength increases it would also necessitate a round of forced removals of current career military damaging the Officer and NCO corps which is an even worse event.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Of course you guys don't like the Draft. Because then you have to EXPLAIN the wars you wanna' wage and convince people to sign up.

"We want to replace the Egyptian Government with the Muslim Brotherhood. Wanna help?"

Uh, no thanks.

 

[Two Thumbs]

The draft is a terrible idea.

I served with a bunch of morans that signed up on their own, some wanted to be in, others couldn't wait to get out.

No way in hell would a quality military thrive with draftees.

 

[georgephillip]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

I'm not sure what the suicide numbers were during Vietnam.
I'm pretty sure the fragging numbers were higher in those days:

"Such was the military-cultural context for calls for the draft: huge ground forces stocked with draftees. What we have now is precisely the opposite – robot/drone wars, with no need for suicidal soldiers or politically awkward draftee casualties. The money all goes to Lockheed and the other big aerospace companies.

"Remember there’s a good reason why they abolished the conscript army. It mutinied in Vietnam and thus was a prime factor in America’s defeat.

Would You Dodge the Draft in Afghanistan? » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[RetiredGySgt]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

I'm not sure what the suicide numbers were during Vietnam.
I'm pretty sure the fragging numbers were higher in those days:

"Such was the military-cultural context for calls for the draft: huge ground forces stocked with draftees. What we have now is precisely the opposite – robot/drone wars, with no need for suicidal soldiers or politically awkward draftee casualties. The money all goes to Lockheed and the other big aerospace companies.

"Remember there’s a good reason why they abolished the conscript army. It mutinied in Vietnam and thus was a prime factor in America’s defeat.

Would You Dodge the Draft in Afghanistan? » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

You are either stupid or a liar, or perhaps you can provide for us evidence that any Mutiny occurred by the military during the Vietnam war.

 

[georgephillip]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

No draftees would not be less likely to commit suicide and the left does not want the draft to "help" the military. They believe a draft will prevent us from waging war when needed and provide a means to mount Viet Nam era protests if we do.

We have zero need for a draft. What we need is for an increase in the size of the military. We need about 60 more Army combat Brigades and a larger Navy and Airforce. We need more ships and modern aircraft. And all of that is doable with out a draft.

Daftees would lower the moral and fighting ability of the military. It would encourage a leftist Congress to lower pay and allowances. It would wreck what we have now.

Assuming no end strength increases it would also necessitate a round of forced removals of current career military damaging the Officer and NCO corps which is an even worse event.

Can we afford to spend more than one-half of every tax dollar on "shock and awe?"

"The military is the nation's largest and most firmly entrenched entitlement program, one that takes half of every tax dollar. Even if 'national security' is considered our No. 1 priority (a dubious choice when the real unemployment rate is over 16 percent), estimates are that the military budget could be cut in half or more and we would still have the most powerful military machine in the world.

"Our enemies (if any) are now 'terrorists,' not countries; and what is needed to contain them (if anything) is local policing, not global warfare. Much of our military hardware is just good for 'shock and awe,' not needed for any 'real and present danger.'"

The Military as a Jobs Program: There Are More Efficient Ways to Stimulate an Economy

 

[RetiredGySgt]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

No draftees would not be less likely to commit suicide and the left does not want the draft to "help" the military. They believe a draft will prevent us from waging war when needed and provide a means to mount Viet Nam era protests if we do.

We have zero need for a draft. What we need is for an increase in the size of the military. We need about 60 more Army combat Brigades and a larger Navy and Airforce. We need more ships and modern aircraft. And all of that is doable with out a draft.

Daftees would lower the moral and fighting ability of the military. It would encourage a leftist Congress to lower pay and allowances. It would wreck what we have now.

Assuming no end strength increases it would also necessitate a round of forced removals of current career military damaging the Officer and NCO corps which is an even worse event.

Can we afford to spend more than one-half of every tax dollar on "shock and awe?"

"The military is the nation's largest and most firmly entrenched entitlement program, one that takes half of every tax dollar. Even if 'national security' is considered our No. 1 priority (a dubious choice when the real unemployment rate is over 16 percent), estimates are that the military budget could be cut in half or more and we would still have the most powerful military machine in the world.

"Our enemies (if any) are now 'terrorists,' not countries; and what is needed to contain them (if anything) is local policing, not global warfare. Much of our military hardware is just good for 'shock and awe,' not needed for any 'real and present danger.'"

The Military as a Jobs Program: There Are More Efficient Ways to Stimulate an Economy

The claim the military costs 50 percent has been debunked over and over. But you keep proving how stupid you are by claiming otherwise.

 

[georgephillip]

Of course you guys don't like the Draft. Because then you have to EXPLAIN the wars you wanna' wage and convince people to sign up.

"We want to replace the Egyptian Government with the Muslim Brotherhood. Wanna help?"

Uh, no thanks.

What about converting half of the military/industrial complex to authentic nation building?

"Military Conversion

"Fortunately, there is a way to solve these problems without maintaining a perpetual state of war: keep the jobs, but convert them to civilian use. Military conversion is a well thought out program that could provide real economic stimulus and national security for people here and abroad. Existing military bases, laboratories and production facilities can be converted to civilian uses."

The Military as a Jobs Program: There Are More Efficient Ways to Stimulate an Economy

 

[old navy]

The number one mandate from the U.S. Constitution is national defense. I have no problem with a larger part of my tax dollar going toward that end, but social security, Medicare and Medicaid, and other entitlements take close to equal amounts.

Post #8 above labeled national security as an entitlement that consumed 50 percent of tax dollars and the Gunny rightly disputed that. Regardless of the social, ideological, or political arguments for a draft, none is needed at this time. I agree with the Gunny also where he stated we need even more military assets. The U.S. military is stretched way too thin and still will be when we get back to routine deployment cycles.

 

[georgephillip]

The draft is a terrible idea.

I served with a bunch of morans that signed up on their own, some wanted to be in, others couldn't wait to get out.

No way in hell would a quality military thrive with draftees.

When did you serve?
Where?

How did the local unemployment rate factor into your decision to enlist, if at all?

 

[georgephillip]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

I'm not sure what the suicide numbers were during Vietnam.
I'm pretty sure the fragging numbers were higher in those days:

"Such was the military-cultural context for calls for the draft: huge ground forces stocked with draftees. What we have now is precisely the opposite – robot/drone wars, with no need for suicidal soldiers or politically awkward draftee casualties. The money all goes to Lockheed and the other big aerospace companies.

"Remember there’s a good reason why they abolished the conscript army. It mutinied in Vietnam and thus was a prime factor in America’s defeat.

Would You Dodge the Draft in Afghanistan? » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

You are either stupid or a liar, or perhaps you can provide for us evidence that any Mutiny occurred by the military during the Vietnam war.

"An American soldier in a hospital explained how he was wounded: He said 'I was told that the way to tell a hostile Vietnamese from a friendly Vietnamese was to shout "To hell with Ho Chi Minh!" If he shoots, he’s unfriendly. So I saw this dude and yelled ‘To hell with Ho Chi Minh!’ and he yelled back, ‘To hell with President Johnson!’ We were shaking hands when a truck hit us.”
- from 1,001 Ways to Beat the Draft, by Tuli Kupferburg."

1961-1973: GI resistance in the Vietnam War | libcom.org

 

[Moonglow]

The number one mandate from the U.S. Constitution is national defense. I have no problem with a larger part of my tax dollar going toward that end, but social security, Medicare and Medicaid, and other entitlements take close to equal amounts.

Post #8 above labeled national security as an entitlement that consumed 50 percent of tax dollars and the Gunny rightly disputed that. Regardless of the social, ideological, or political arguments for a draft, none is needed at this time. I agree with the Gunny also where he stated we need even more military assets. The U.S. military is stretched way too thin and still will be when we get back to routine deployment cycles.

social security, medicare are not entitlements, one must pay for them many decades to receive what youhave paid in, same with SSDI

 

[Moonglow]

no time to wonder why, whoa!
We all gonna die

 

[Mad Scientist]

If the Military is stretched too thin then they should cut back on their operations.

Guarding poppy fields in Afghanistan doesn't qualify as "Providing for the Common Defense".

 

[georgephillip]

Arm sales.
Oil sales.
Profits from illegal drugs.

The big three money makers on the planet today, so it's hardly surprising that opium production in Afghanistan declines when the Taliban controls poppy cultivation.

 

[georgephillip]

No draftees would not be less likely to commit suicide and the left does not want the draft to "help" the military. They believe a draft will prevent us from waging war when needed and provide a means to mount Viet Nam era protests if we do.

We have zero need for a draft. What we need is for an increase in the size of the military. We need about 60 more Army combat Brigades and a larger Navy and Airforce. We need more ships and modern aircraft. And all of that is doable with out a draft.

Daftees would lower the moral and fighting ability of the military. It would encourage a leftist Congress to lower pay and allowances. It would wreck what we have now.

Assuming no end strength increases it would also necessitate a round of forced removals of current career military damaging the Officer and NCO corps which is an even worse event.

Can we afford to spend more than one-half of every tax dollar on "shock and awe?"

"The military is the nation's largest and most firmly entrenched entitlement program, one that takes half of every tax dollar. Even if 'national security' is considered our No. 1 priority (a dubious choice when the real unemployment rate is over 16 percent), estimates are that the military budget could be cut in half or more and we would still have the most powerful military machine in the world.

"Our enemies (if any) are now 'terrorists,' not countries; and what is needed to contain them (if anything) is local policing, not global warfare. Much of our military hardware is just good for 'shock and awe,' not needed for any 'real and present danger.'"

The Military as a Jobs Program: There Are More Efficient Ways to Stimulate an Economy

The claim the military costs 50 percent has been debunked over and over. But you keep proving how stupid you are by claiming otherwise.

I'm not stupid enough to confuse the Pentagon's base budget numbers with the military's total cost to the US taxpayer. Are you?

"$235.6 Billion – The increase in the Pentagon’s annual 'Base' budget (not including war costs or the nuclear weapons activities of the Department of Energy) from FY2000 to FY2011. The Pentagon’s annual budget rose from $290.5 billion to $526.1 billion (in constant FY 2012 dollars), a real increase of 43 percent. See NPP's analysis "U.S. Security Spending Since 9/11."

"$6.6 Billion – The increase in the Department of Energy’s budget for nuclear weapons activities over the same period. DoE’s weapons budget rose from $12.4 billion to $19.0 billion (in constant FY 2012 dollars), a real increase of 21 percent. See NPP's analysis "U.S. Security Spending Since 9/11"

"39 Percent – The percentage of interest on the national debt related to past military spending. Net interest on the national debt for Fiscal Year 2011 is estimated at $207 billion, of which past military spending would account for roughly $80 billion. Source: National Priorities Project"

Top Ten "Security Spending" Numbers (You Need to Know) | COSTOFWAR.COM

 

[old navy]

The number one mandate from the U.S. Constitution is national defense. I have no problem with a larger part of my tax dollar going toward that end, but social security, Medicare and Medicaid, and other entitlements take close to equal amounts.

Post #8 above labeled national security as an entitlement that consumed 50 percent of tax dollars and the Gunny rightly disputed that. Regardless of the social, ideological, or political arguments for a draft, none is needed at this time. I agree with the Gunny also where he stated we need even more military assets. The U.S. military is stretched way too thin and still will be when we get back to routine deployment cycles.

social security, medicare are not entitlements, one must pay for them many decades to receive what youhave paid in, same with SSDI

And neither is national defense and the people who carry out the mission. I quoted a post that listed national defense as an entitlement.

 

[old navy]

If the Military is stretched too thin then they should cut back on their operations.

Guarding poppy fields in Afghanistan doesn't qualify as "Providing for the Common Defense".

"They" should cut back on their operations? The military does not come up with the mission. The civilian leadership directs the policy and as the poop flows downward, the various miliary units respond. The citizenry gets the government and the policies in which they vote.