BREAKING: Trump team said to tell Israelis: Western Wall is not your territory

Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by louie888, May 15, 2017.

  1. Shusha
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    Shusha Gold Member

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    Its not the least bit crazy. What is crazy is trying to argue on the one hand that invading and colonizing peoples hold all the rights to the territory while arguing on the other that invading and colonizing peoples have no rights to the territory. What is crazy is trying to argue that expelled or murdered peoples have no rights to a territory while arguing on the other that the expelled and murdered peoples are the only ones with rights to the territory. You can't have it both ways.

    Either indigenous peoples whose sovereignty has been lost due to invasions, conquests, expulsions, ethnic cleansings and colonization have inherent rights or they don't. Either invaders, conquerors and colonizers assume those rights or they don't.

    IF the indigenous (or long-term) peoples hold the rights to the territory -- then the Roma and the Jewish people and the Palestinian Arabs have rights to their ancestral (and long-term) lands.

    IF the invaders, conquerors and colonizers assume those rights on successful expulsion or murder -- then the Indians, the Arab Palestinians and the Jewish Israelis assume those rights.

    You keep trying to exclude the Jewish peoples on both ends of the argument, without realizing that any argument that can be made for excluding the Jewish people ALSO excludes the Arab Palestinians.

    If you want to make the argument that an expelled or murdered peoples have lost all rights to their indigenous territory, as you do above, then you have just excluded the Palestinian people from rights to any territory overtaken by Israel.
     
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  2. louie888
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    louie888 Gold Member

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    Extremely long-winded bullshit where you again, purposely conflate Europeans with the Jewish people from the torah. I say "purposely," because I for one, have explained this to you numerous times.
     
  3. Shusha
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    Shusha Gold Member

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    Yes. I am fully aware of your argument. Expelled people lose their status and all their rights. Gotcha.

    Which means the "European Jews" do not belong to the Jewish people.

    Which means the Roma do not belong to the Romani people.

    Which means the Palestinians living outside Palestine are no longer Palestinian people and have lost all their rights.

    If you want to argue that, go ahead. I have no problem with it. At least its an internally consistent argument. Sadly, it means that there are only a small number of Palestinians left in Israel. (And, if you follow the line of the arguments you (and others) make -- that small number of Palestinians doesn't warrant consideration, let alone self-determination or sovereignty).
     
  4. louie888
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    louie888 Gold Member

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    You are arguing that. And it's stupid.
     
  5. miketx
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    miketx Gold Member

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    More libtard he said she said.
     
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  6. montelatici
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    montelatici Gold Member

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    The Jewish "people" and those practicing other religions (e.g. Samaritans) that were indigenous to Palestine, converted to Christianity almost 2,000 years ago. Those Christians, for the most part, then converted to Islam. The Zionist Jews are Europeans with little to no ancestral ties to Palestine.
     
  7. miketx
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    miketx Gold Member

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    What's the word from Putin on this latest impeachable falsehood?
     
  8. Shusha
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    Shusha Gold Member

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    Fine. Sure. No one is really arguing against this in its broadest terms.

    What we are discussing is how these events influence your understanding of the Israel/Arab conflict and how you use it to formulate an argument (or a set of rules, guidelines and policies) to make your case.

    The Jewish people that were indigenous to the territory, were overtaken (expelled, murdered, forcibly converted, colonized) by an external force. These circumstances negated the indigenous Jewish peoples rights to the territory.

    The Roman Christian rulers of the territory were then overtaken (expelled, murdered, forcibly or voluntarily converted, colonized) by an external force. These circumstances negated the rights of the previous rulers.

    The Arab Muslim rulers of the territory were then overtaken (expelled, murdered, forcibly or voluntarily converted, colonized) by an external force. These circumstances, if your argument is consistent, negated the rights of the previous rulers.

    The Jewish Israeli rulers of the territory are now the ones who hold the rights to that territory. At least, it would be, if your argument was consistent.
     
  9. louie888
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    louie888 Gold Member

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    Still purposely conflating Europeans with biblical Jews, I see.
     
  10. teddyearp
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    teddyearp Gold Member

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    Expecting monti to be consistent is like expecting the sun to not set.
     
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