Boston Globe - Gaza Civil War Is Israel's Fault

[maineman]

my answers/comments in bold:

I have my own questions.

Europe and the Liberals in this Country have for years demanded Israel get out of ALL "occupied" territory. True or False?

false. I have never once heard anyone in any position of power in my party DEMAND Israel get out of all occupied territories.... and I really have no control nor little interest in what Europeans have to say about it...they are the folks who put Jews in Ghettos for a millennium and then gassed and burned millions of them. Why should Israel listen for a minute to them (they don't by the way) and why should I give a shit about what a bunch of Europeans have to say about Israel in the first place?

Jimmy " the savior" Carter made a plan to turn over all of the occuppied territory to Palestinian control. True or False?
true, based upon certain conditions, which the Palestinians have never come close to meeting

Every "Road Map" since has included the intent to have Israel withdraw from all "occupied" territory. True or False?
true, based upon certain conditions which the Palestinians have never come close to meeting

Arafat DEMANDED the Israel's get out. True or False?
He ONCE demanded that, but in the '93 Oslo Accords withdrew that demand

Israel is condemned daily by Europe and the Liberals in the US for not giving the Palestinians their own Country. True or False?
Europe? I have no fucking idea, and, unless you routinely keep up to date on the European press coverage, neither do you. Liberals in America know -like Yitshak Rabin knew - that peace in the area will never be achieved as long as the residents of the West Bank and Gaza are held in some permanent inferior status... and annexation is foolhardy.

The excuse used when Europeans "support" Palestinian terror is that Israel causes it by "occupying" land that doesn't belong to Israel. True or False?
False.... do you have any links that would indicate that any European government feels that way? The fact is, however, that the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza - populated almost entirely by Palestinians - is not the best way to try and convince Palestinians to stop attacking you


I suggest all these are "True". So now explain again WHY, when Israel did what they were being told to do, it is STILL their fault that the savages that live there can not get along?

Israel has NEVER done what they were "being told to do" unless Israel believed that such actions were in its enlightened self interest. Sharon left the Gaza unilaterally on his volition before any deal could be hammered out.... which I applauded at the time, but realize now that until the Hamas/Fatah internecine struggle had been settled, leaving Gaza without a strong civil/military law enforcement presence has been a recipe for disaster

Maineman you insist over and over that Iraq can never work. Why is it different in "palestine"? Your party wants to run Israel into the dirt AND then condemn them for doing what the Liberals told them to do.
I disagree with your premise. You clearly have no real idea what the democratic party position is on Israel...and again.... I am the most pro-Israeli person I know, so you are barking up the wrong tree

Just admit it.... to a Liberal , when something doesn't work it is always someone elses fault. Liberals are never wrong and never to blame, never accountable for their actions.

I will admit that you are a blowhard...and your "liberals never" and liberals always" bloviated rhetoric is as irrelevant and vacuous as RSR's

If we should not be in Iraq, why should Israel be responsible for stopping the bloodshed in "palestine"?
No one said they should be solely responsible, but as I have explained above, they need to understand - and many of them do and have for some time - that their occupation of the Wet Bank and the Gaza Strip is not conducive to their long term security.

 

[red states rule]

First the Boston Globe, now The Clinton News Network

Now it is Bush's fault...................


CNN’s Jack Cafferty Blames President Bush For Hamas Takeover of Gaza
Posted by Noel Sheppard on June 16, 2007 - 17:11.
On Thursday, Instapundit’s Glenn Reynolds was curious how quickly Israel would be blamed for Hamas’ activities in Gaza, with the answer expeditiously coming from the Boston Globe.

Well, CNN’s Jack Cafferty one-upped the Globe Friday by actually blaming Hamas' takeover of Gaza on – wait for it! – President George W. Bush.

Color me unsurprised.

In his normal spot on CNN’s “The Situation Room,” Cafferty exhibited some of the most extraordinary Bush Derangement Syndrome yet as he blamed every problem in the Middle East on the current White House (video available here):

When there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, President Bush immediately seized on the idea of bringing freedom and democracy. How is that working out for you, Mr. President? The United States also pressured the Palestinians to hold elections. They elected Hamas, a terrorist organization. How is that working out for you, Mr. President?

Hamas has now seized Gaza, the Abbas government has been dismantled and Hamas militants has been on a rampage, pillaging government institutions. It's very unlikely they'll be dipping their fingers in ink wells there anytime soon. A week ago, Condoleezza "Photo Op" Rice babbling about Bush's democracy agenda being morally right and politically necessary. How is that agenda working out for you, madam secretary?

And when you look around the rest of the neighborhood, freedom, democracy, endangered species in Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Hamid Karzai's democracy in Afghanistan hanging on by a fingernail as the Taliban works furiously to make a comeback there. The argument could be made that the Middle East is closer to conflagration right now than at any time since we tried to force people in that part of the world to see it our way.
http://newsbusters.org/node/13514

 

[red states rule]

Will Media Report Palestinians Fleeing Gaza For Israel?
Posted by Noel Sheppard on June 16, 2007 - 14:30.
Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs pointed out an interesting situation developing in war-stricken Gaza that will likely put America’s anti-Israel press in a peculiar position (emphasis added):

According to the international left and the paleo-right, Israel is a fascist apartheid state, a brutal occupier, universally despised by the oppressed Palestinian people.

So where do the oppressed Palestinians look for sanctuary, when the terrorist government they elected begins the inevitable slaughter?

The extraordinary answer was contained in the caption to the Associated Press picture above right (emphasis added):

Palestinians run as they try to cross to the Israel side at the Erez Crossing, in the northern Gaza Strip, Saturday, June 16, 2007. Dozens of Palestinians converged on the Erez crossing with Israel on Saturday, trying to leave the Gaza Strip following Hamas’ takeover.

The Jerusalem Post confirmed these crossing attempts Saturday:

Earlier, dozens of Palestinians arrived at the Erez Crossing in an attempt to escape the Gaza Strip and enter Israel. IDF soldiers shot into the air to try to prevent the approaching crowds from infiltrating through the security fence.

Many of the Palestinians arrived at the crossing carrying large suitcases and were planning to run away from the Strip following Hamas's takeover.

One young man shouted "bye, bye, Gaza," and waved as he walked through the covered walkway that leads to the Israeli side.

http://newsbusters.org/node/13511

 

[maineman]

Cafferty makes some excellent points. Forcing democracy down anyone's throats is a bad idea. It may seem to "taste good" going down, but if people are not truly ready for it, they will quickly toss it back up...as witnessed in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Gaza Strip.

Rather than press the palestinians to hold western-style democratic elections, Bush would have been wiser to attempt to keep Israel engaged with the palestinians and the various factions of palestinians engaged with one another while working hard to decrease the economic inequity which is at the root of all middle eastern extremism.

 

[red states rule]

Cafferty makes some excellent points. Forcing democracy down anyone's throats is a bad idea. It may seem to "taste good" going down, but if people are not truly ready for it, they will quickly toss it back up...as witnessed in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Gaza Strip.

Rather than press the palestinians to hold western-style democratic elections, Bush would have been wiser to attempt to keep Israel engaged with the palestinians and the various factions of palestinians engaged with one another while working hard to decrease the economic inequity which is at the root of all middle eastern extremism.

To libs, no matter what happens, it is Bush's fault

If you get a parking ticket MM - you would blame Bush for it

 

[maineman]

To libs, no matter what happens, it is Bush's fault

If you get a parking ticket MM - you would blame Bush for it

not at all. In regards to the carnage in the Gaza strip, I think it is primarily the Palestinian's fault...and then, Israel's fault, and Bush only plays a minor role in it...but what he DID do, he did incorrectly.... and he has made the same mistake in Afghanistan and, to a much larger extent, in Iraq.

 

[jillian]

and I can tell you, having travelled through both the west bank and gaza on numerous occasions, the standard of living there was abysmal and the Israeli occupiers were unconcerned with justice or diplomacy - only maintaining iron fisted contol.

And should people not be controlled who like blowing up babies in carriages or children on school buses?

 

[jillian]

Cafferty makes some excellent points. Forcing democracy down anyone's throats is a bad idea. It may seem to "taste good" going down, but if people are not truly ready for it, they will quickly toss it back up...as witnessed in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Gaza Strip.

Rather than press the palestinians to hold western-style democratic elections, Bush would have been wiser to attempt to keep Israel engaged with the palestinians and the various factions of palestinians engaged with one another while working hard to decrease the economic inequity which is at the root of all middle eastern extremism.

Difficult to work with people whose stated objective is wiping you off the face of the earth.

But I agree that democracy isn't always the best or right answer.

Economic inequality should be a concern of all of the Arab nations. It isn't only endemic in the territories. I'd lay a good part of the blame at Arafat's feet since so much of the international aid given to him ended up in Suha's bank accounts in Paris. The palestinians were ill-served. But they aren't Israel's responsibility. Their own leaders screwed them over. And THAT is why Hamas beat out Fatah when it came to elections. The simple inability to deliver improvements in their lives despite international aid, because of rampant corruption.

 

[red states rule]

Difficult to work with people whose stated objective is wiping you off the face of the earth.

But I agree that democracy isn't always the best or right answer.

Economic inequality should be a concern of all of the Arab nations. It isn't only endemic in the territories. I'd lay a good part of the blame at Arafat's feet since so much of the international aid given to him ended up in Suha's bank accounts in Paris. The palestinians were ill-served. But they aren't Israel's responsibility. Their own leaders screwed them over. And THAT is why Hamas beat out Fatah when it came to elections. The simple inability to deliver improvements in their lives despite international aid, because of rampant corruption.

Economic inequality? With the money they are making off oil sales - why is their any economic inequality?

Hamas is a terrorists group, and needs to be delt with

 

[red states rule]

Media Ignore Theft of Arafat’s Nobel Peace Prize, Downplay Palestinian Flight to Israel
Posted by Noel Sheppard on June 17, 2007 - 13:04.
On Saturday, NewsBusters asked two important questions: “Will Media Report Palestinians Fleeing Gaza For Israel,” and will they address the theft of Yasser Arafat’s Nobel Peace Prize by Hamas looters?

At this point, the answer to the latter is a resounding “No.” The answer to the former is “Not much.”

To be more specific, extensive searches of Google News and LexisNexis have identified that no major American media outlet with the exception of the New York Daily News bothered to report the theft of Yasser Arafat’s Noble Peace Prize:

One of the strongest symbols of the Fatah Party, the Gaza Strip home of its founder, Arafat, who died in 2004, was torn apart. Frenzied Hamas members carted away furniture, wall tiles and Arafat's personal belongings - even his cherished Nobel Peace Prize.

"They stole almost everything inside the house," Fatah spokesman Ahmed Abdel Rahman told the Jerusalem Post," including Arafat's Nobel Peace Prize medal.

http://newsbusters.org/node/13526

 

[maineman]

oil revenues to the very few is one of the main causes of economic inequity IN the middle east.

 

[red states rule]

oil revenues to the very few is one of the main causes of economic inequity IN the middle east.

Much like in Mexico?

 

[maineman]

Much like in Mexico?

yes indeed. do you think that millions of mexicans would want to leave their homeland if the economic opportunities were available in their home country?

 

[red states rule]

yes indeed. do you think that millions of mexicans would want to leave their homeland if the economic opportunities were available in their home country?

Why do members of both parties want to open the door and have the over taxed US taxpayer pay the bill?

It is not our problem

 

[maineman]

quit trying to change the subject. What does Mexico have to do with Gaza?

My point was the oil revenue distribution fuels economic inequity in the middle east which, in turn, fuels islamic extremism.

 

[red states rule]

quit trying to change the subject. What does Mexico have to do with Gaza?

My point was the oil revenue distribution fuels economic inequity in the middle east which, in turn, fuels islamic extremism.

So why is it the responsibilty or fault of Israel or Pres Bush?

As far as Mexico - we are blamed for the economic conditions there as well

 

[maineman]

So why is it the responsibilty or fault of Israel or Pres Bush?

As far as Mexico - we are blamed for the economic conditions there as well

so because you want to make that bizarre connection, Mexico now becomes part of the discussion about the happenings in Gaza?

again...quit spinning and changing the subject. I stated quite clearly that the primary responsibility for all of this lies with the palestinians.

And are you really suggesting that the fact that Israel OCCUPIED the West Bank and Gaza Strip for forty years does not contribute to this issue?

And are you further suggesting that America's continued support for Israel on one hand, and the Gulf States monarchies on the other hand has not contributed to the economic inequity in the middle east?

 

[red states rule]

so because you want to make that bizarre connection, Mexico now becomes part of the discussion about the happenings in Gaza?

again...quit spinning and changing the subject. I stated quite clearly that the primary responsibility for all of this lies with the palestinians.

And are you really suggesting that the fact that Israel OCCUPIED the West Bank and Gaza Strip for forty years does not contribute to this issue?

And are you further suggesting that America's continued support for Israel on one hand, and the Gulf States monarchies on the other hand has not contributed to the economic inequity in the middle east?

Yea, it was Israel's fault the terrorists were shooting at them as they left the Gaza. Anytime you try and reason with people that want you dead - you are giving them time to carry out that mission

With the oil wealth, how is it's Israel's fault there is poverty in the Middle East?

 

[maineman]

Yea, it was Israel's fault the terrorists were shooting at them as they left the Gaza. Anytime you try and reason with people that want you dead - you are giving them time to carry out that mission

With the oil wealth, how is it's Israel's fault there is poverty in the Middle East?

has Israel occupied their land for 40 years? yes or no

I never said that Israel was connected to the oil wealth issue at all...but we certainly are

 

[red states rule]

has Israel occupied their land for 40 years? yes or no

I never said that Israel was connected to the oil wealth issue at all...but we certainly are

They took the land after the won a war they did not start

Even after they give the land back, they are still attacked by the terrorists

Soemthing to remener since you want to surrender to terrorists in Iraq