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ajwps

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Nov 7, 2003
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Federal Judge Violates Foreign Relations Authorization Act.....

The U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C. has found that United States consular offices in Israel need not register the birthplace of an American citizen born in Jerusalem as "Jerusalem, Israel," but merely as "Jerusalem."

Suits demanding that Jerusalem be listed as belonging to Israel were filed by Ari and Naomi Siegman Zivotofsky of Beit Shemesh on behalf of their infant son and by Dan and Jocelyn Odenheimer of Efrat on behalf of their minor child. The suits, filed against the U.S. Department of State and Secretary of State Colin Powell, were rejected yesterday by U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler. The plaintiffs say they will appeal.

Both plaintiffs challenged Powell's failure to implement Section 214(d) of the 2003 Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Pub. L. 107-228, which requires the Department of State to list an individual's place of birth as "Jerusalem, Israel" upon request. The law states, "For purposes of the registration of birth, certification of nationality, or issuance of a passport of a United States citizen born in the city of Jerusalem, the Secretary shall, upon the request of the citizen or the citizen's legal guardian, record the place of birth as Israel."

Judge Kesser ruled that the plaintiffs have no standing to demand that this law be implemented because they have "sustained no injury in fact." The judge wrote that the "mere existence of a statute does not negate the requirement that the party seeking review must himself have suffered an injury." Plaintiff A. Zivotofsky later commented to Arutz-7, "Though I'm not a lawyer, this does seem bizarre; basically, the judge has rendered the law meaningless."

Judge Kessler also rejected the suit based on the grounds that it is a "non-justiciable political issue" and that the U.S. "does not recognize any sovereign over the city." She explained that the status of Jerusalem is "a hotly contested issue, one that has consumed policymakers in the United States and the Middle East for the past fifty years... Pursuant to the policy [that Jerusalem's final status has not yet been determined], United States citizens born in Jerusalem are identified on their passports with only their city of birth; no country of birth is listed, because the United States does not at this time recognize any sovereign over the city."

Attorney Mordechai Haller of Jerusalem said that by definition, the issue is certainly justiciable:
"An issue is non-justiciable either when there are no legal standards or norms that can lead the court to decide on it, or when it is a matter of government policy within the exclusive jurisdiction of another branch of government. This case, however, in which the law itself specifically mandates a course of action, goes beyond mere policy. It therefore is by definition a justiciable issue."

The defendants (Powell and the State Department) made three other points in their defense, but Judge Kessler did not relate to these claims.

The U.S. "Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995" states that official U.S. policy toward Jerusalem is that the city should remain a united city in which the rights of all ethnic and religious groups are protected; that it should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; and that the U.S. Embassy should be established there no later than May 31, 1999. The Act also stipulates that 50% of the money used to acquire and maintain official US buildings abroad may not be spent if the Embassy has not been opened in Jerusalem by May 31, 1999. Contrary to public perception, the law does not grant the President the right to delay the opening of the Embassy for six months at a time, but rather to waive the 50% spending restriction if the Embassy is not built. Presidents Clinton and Bush have invoked the waiver every six months since the Act was legislated, and the Embassy has not been built.
 
ajwps said:
Federal Judge Violates Foreign Relations Authorization Act.....

The U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C. has found that United States consular offices in Israel need not register the birthplace of an American citizen born in Jerusalem as "Jerusalem, Israel," but merely as "Jerusalem."

Suits demanding that Jerusalem be listed as belonging to Israel were filed by Ari and Naomi Siegman Zivotofsky of Beit Shemesh on behalf of their infant son and by Dan and Jocelyn Odenheimer of Efrat on behalf of their minor child. The suits, filed against the U.S. Department of State and Secretary of State Colin Powell, were rejected yesterday by U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler. The plaintiffs say they will appeal.

Both plaintiffs challenged Powell's failure to implement Section 214(d) of the 2003 Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Pub. L. 107-228, which requires the Department of State to list an individual's place of birth as "Jerusalem, Israel" upon request. The law states, "For purposes of the registration of birth, certification of nationality, or issuance of a passport of a United States citizen born in the city of Jerusalem, the Secretary shall, upon the request of the citizen or the citizen's legal guardian, record the place of birth as Israel."

Judge Kesser ruled that the plaintiffs have no standing to demand that this law be implemented because they have "sustained no injury in fact." The judge wrote that the "mere existence of a statute does not negate the requirement that the party seeking review must himself have suffered an injury." Plaintiff A. Zivotofsky later commented to Arutz-7, "Though I'm not a lawyer, this does seem bizarre; basically, the judge has rendered the law meaningless."

Judge Kessler also rejected the suit based on the grounds that it is a "non-justiciable political issue" and that the U.S. "does not recognize any sovereign over the city." She explained that the status of Jerusalem is "a hotly contested issue, one that has consumed policymakers in the United States and the Middle East for the past fifty years... Pursuant to the policy [that Jerusalem's final status has not yet been determined], United States citizens born in Jerusalem are identified on their passports with only their city of birth; no country of birth is listed, because the United States does not at this time recognize any sovereign over the city."

Attorney Mordechai Haller of Jerusalem said that by definition, the issue is certainly justiciable:
"An issue is non-justiciable either when there are no legal standards or norms that can lead the court to decide on it, or when it is a matter of government policy within the exclusive jurisdiction of another branch of government. This case, however, in which the law itself specifically mandates a course of action, goes beyond mere policy. It therefore is by definition a justiciable issue."

The defendants (Powell and the State Department) made three other points in their defense, but Judge Kessler did not relate to these claims.

The U.S. "Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995" states that official U.S. policy toward Jerusalem is that the city should remain a united city in which the rights of all ethnic and religious groups are protected; that it should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; and that the U.S. Embassy should be established there no later than May 31, 1999. The Act also stipulates that 50% of the money used to acquire and maintain official US buildings abroad may not be spent if the Embassy has not been opened in Jerusalem by May 31, 1999. Contrary to public perception, the law does not grant the President the right to delay the opening of the Embassy for six months at a time, but rather to waive the 50% spending restriction if the Embassy is not built. Presidents Clinton and Bush have invoked the waiver every six months since the Act was legislated, and the Embassy has not been built.

So the back door legal approach to get the US to recognize all of Jerusalem as Israeli property didn't succeed this time?
 
As far as I knew, most of Jerusalem was part of Israel from Day One in 1948. I know there is an Arab section of teh city, but to say that Jerusalem is not part of Israel is like saying NYC isn't part of the US.
 
gop_jeff said:
As far as I knew, most of Jerusalem was part of Israel from Day One in 1948. I know there is an Arab section of teh city, but to say that Jerusalem is not part of Israel is like saying NYC isn't part of the US.

The power of judicial disgression strikes again! :dunno:
 
dilloduck said:
So the back door legal approach to get the US to recognize all of Jerusalem as Israeli property didn't succeed this time?

The question of Israel's declared capital city of Jerusalem as recognized by the world nations will not be over until 'the fat lady sings.'

The US fears that recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem is based on FEAR of Arab hate for America.

Like that Arab hate of America was not already a fact as demonstrated by the sneak attack of America on 09/11.

Section 214(d) of the 2003 Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Pub. L. 107-228 has not been implemented by Presidential decree based on a legal back door approach. The metal of a US President will be demonstrated by doing what is right and legal. The fact that Clinton and the Bushes have failed to recognize Israel's ancient and modern capital illustrates the obvious lack of any intestinal fortitude or backbone to act as a strong President of the United States.
 
gop_jeff said:
As far as I knew, most of Jerusalem was part of Israel from Day One in 1948. I know there is an Arab section of teh city, but to say that Jerusalem is not part of Israel is like saying NYC isn't part of the US.
Old city was not. This is the most "important" part of Jerusalem for all sides involved.
 
drac said:
Old city was not. This is the most "important" part of Jerusalem for all sides involved.

Old City or New City, Jerusalem was recaptured by Israel after thousands of years of being overtaken by invading armies.

All of Jerusalem is now Israel's capital city and there is nothing whatsoever to do with any SIDES involvement in another's capital city. No one has any interest in Judaism's holiest site.

There are no 'different sides' having any interest in Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

Like it or not, all of Jerusalem will have to be taken away from Israel by force of arms.
 
ajwps said:
Old City or New City, Jerusalem was recaptured by Israel after thousands of years of being overtaken by invading armies.

All of Jerusalem is now Israel's capital city and there is nothing whatsoever to do with any SIDES involvement in another's capital city. No one has any interest in Judaism's holiest site.

There are no 'different sides' having any interest in Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

Like it or not, all of Jerusalem will have to be taken away from Israel by force of arms.
i was just commenting on/"correcting" the jeff's post. Old city was not part of israel till 67, as far as i remember. As for sides...., old city represents/plays important part in judiasm, christianity and islam (yes i know it is not THE holiest place for islam, but it is still plays important role to them, yes it is holiest for jews and christians). Do not you agree? That was all i tried to say. I do not see why it should be given away or taken from jews to/by anyone else. :beer:
Mecca, does not play any role in jewish or christian book as far as i know, so why would anyone else, except muslims have any interest in it?
 
drac said:
i was just commenting on/"correcting" the jeff's post. Old city was not part of israel till 67, as far as i remember. As for sides...., old city represents/plays important part in judiasm, christianity and islam (yes i know it is not THE holiest place for islam, but it is still plays important role to them, yes it is holiest for jews and christians). Do not you agree? That was all i tried to say. I do not see why it should be given away or taken from jews to/by anyone else.
Mecca, does not play any role in jewish or christian book as far as i know, so why would anyone else, except muslims have any interest in it?

It always amazes me that people still confuse the old part of Jerusalem with the new part. Actually all of Jerusalem (old and new) are the ONE capital city of Israel. Israel simply recaptured one part of Jerusalem from the Jordanian army during one of the wars waged against Israel by the surrounding Arab countries. There have been occupiers of Israel and Jerusalem since it was first taken some 3,316 years ago but was always considered the Jewish home land for those more than 3 eons. Simply because other nations do not recognize this fact does not nullify its status.

My Mecca comment was meant as satire to demonstrate the ignorance of the statement about other's rights to another people's land or cities.

The importance of Jeruslaem and Israel to three religions has little to do with reality. Yes I agree that these three religions believe that their faiths have some of their origins in Israel and written into their bibles but actually Islam doesn't mention Jerusalem once in the Qur'an.

Israel is currently a sovereign country among the nations. All three religions (including Judaism) may believe that this country plays an important role in their faiths but that does not mean that anyone but the Jewish people have this country as their present homeland.

The Arabs may not have Israel found in any of their maps of the Middle East but Israel doesn't have a Palestine in their maps of the Middle East.
 
ajwps said:
It always amazes me that people still confuse the old part of Jerusalem with the new part. Actually all of Jerusalem (old and new) are the ONE capital city of Israel. Israel simply recaptured one part of Jerusalem from the Jordanian army during one of the wars waged against Israel by the surrounding Arab countries. There have been occupiers of Israel and Jerusalem since it was first taken some 3,316 years ago but was always considered the Jewish home land for those more than 3 eons. Simply because other nations do not recognize this fact does not nullify its status.

My Mecca comment was meant as satire to demonstrate the ignorance of the statement about other's rights to another people's land or cities.

The importance of Jeruslaem and Israel to three religions has little to do with reality. Yes I agree that these three religions believe that their faiths have some of their origins in Israel and written into their bibles but actually Islam doesn't mention Jerusalem once in the Qur'an.

Israel is currently a sovereign country among the nations. All three religions (including Judaism) may believe that this country plays an important role in their faiths but that does not mean that anyone but the Jewish people have this country as their present homeland.

The Arabs may not have Israel found in any of their maps of the Middle East but Israel doesn't have a Palestine in their maps of the Middle East.

who considered Israel to be the homeland for Jews for 3 eons?
 
dilloduck said:
who considered Israel to be the homeland for Jews for 3 eons?

This Jewish homeland is considered to be a sovereign Israel today by the JEWISH PEOPLE.....

If you disagree with Jews considering Israel to be their homeland for more tna 3 eons you might want to take up that little point with some large army that wishes to change that fact.
 
ajwps said:
This Jewish homeland is considered to be a sovereign Israel today by the JEWISH PEOPLE.....

If you disagree with Jews considering Israel to be their homeland for more tna 3 eons you might want to take up that little point with some large army that wishes to change that fact.

The point being that other people thought differently for 3000 years. It was nice of the UN to ultimately give it to you !
 
dilloduck said:
The point being that other people thought differently for 3000 years. It was nice of the UN to ultimately give it to you !

The point is that it really didn't matter what other people thought about anything. Reality and what people think are often very different.

It was nice of the UN to give Israel to Israel? What can the United Nations do to give something that they did not have to anyone else.

The UN voted to ratify Israel's earlier decision to be a nation among the nations. The voted a partition of Israel into Arab and Jewish sections. But the fact is that if the UN voted against Israel's status as a nation, it wouldn't have made one iota of difference as Israel declared itself a nation before the UN even brought it up for discussion. Did the UN give America to the pilgrims or to give part of German to France to become Alsace Loraign?

Do you run your life by the UN mandates or sanctions?
 
ajwps said:
It always amazes me that people still confuse the old part of Jerusalem with the new part. Actually all of Jerusalem (old and new) are the ONE capital city of Israel. Israel simply recaptured one part of Jerusalem from the Jordanian army during one of the wars waged against Israel by the surrounding Arab countries.
O come on AJ. No one is saying it is 2 cities or confusing "old city" with new one. "Old city" is a "label", you know that, and most people use it.
My Mecca comment was meant as satire to demonstrate the ignorance of the statement about other's rights to another people's land or cities.
We can talk about others rights if you want, but my statement was about importance of the "old city" to 3 religions.
actually Islam doesn't mention Jerusalem once in the Qur'an.
what about Muhamed(sp?) and white horse/donkey and going up to the haven? (not debating here, just do not know much about it, so i am asking)
Israel is currently a sovereign country among the nations. All three religions (including Judaism) may believe that this country plays an important role in their faiths but that does not mean that anyone but the Jewish people have this country as their present homeland.
The Arabs may not have Israel found in any of their maps of the Middle East but Israel doesn't have a Palestine in their maps of the Middle East.
agree
 
dilloduck said:
The point being that other people thought differently for 3000 years. It was nice of the UN to ultimately give it to you !
Dill, not really an argument. Jews have the same rights as anyone else. Why should not UN officially restore those rights?
 
drac said:
Dill, not really an argument. Jews have the same rights as anyone else. Why should not UN officially restore those rights?

So do American Indians----should the UN restore their right to America and expell all those of European, Asian or African descent?
 
dilloduck said:
So do American Indians----should the UN restore their right to America and expell all those of European, Asian or African descent?
Are you saying current american indian's (which is a global term for various tribes and therefore should not be used in comparision imho) rights are not protected enough by USA laws? Is any specific tribe officially stated or expressed an interest in independent state?
I know you are trying to make a general statement, but the fact that if someone's rights are suppressed (your example american indians) , does not mean that rights of others (jews) must be suppressed as well, no?
Also, small point. Creation of jewish state does not imply that others must be expelled from the land.
 
drac said:
Are you saying current american indian's (which is a global term for various tribes and therefore should not be used in comparision imho) rights are not protected enough by USA laws? Is any specific tribe officially stated or expressed an interest in independent state?
I know you are trying to make a general statement, but the fact that if someone's rights are suppressed (your example american indians) , does not mean that rights of others (jews) must be suppressed as well, no?
Also, small point. Creation of jewish state does not imply that others must be expelled from the land.
I was referring to the fact that just because a society considers a piece of land to be THEIR homeland doesn't neccessarily mean it is. There were many American Indian tribes who considered various parts of "new world" to be THEIR homeland. Were they required to register this land as theirs somewhere? Thier civilization was just as real as Israels'. By following your logic, this land should be given back to them because God told them this land was theirs. Once they got this land back I would imagine they would ask some people to leave their land. Would those people pack up willingly and say "good luck"? The land Israel claims as it's own has been "owned" by other empires for centuries. The jews claim to Israel was a homeland is only "validated" by the old testament until given to them by the UN. Now they "own" it by UN declaration and force.
 

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